Upcoming Thermal Paste Engagement

[Null]

For me, life as a fanboy will change as I know it.

Soon, I hope to enter the wild and wooly world of watercooling. My heatsink will come off to make room for a cpu waterblock. And there will be paste and it will need to come off too. Planning ahead, I have been doing my homework. I've been reading a lot about it. I've been reading about applying thermal paste and preparing surfaces for the thermal paste beforehand. There doesn't seem to be much to it. A little dab of alcohol will do to clean off the old stuff and a bricklayers trowel will do to spread the new stuff evenly.

But I've seen some mention of thermal paste breaking down and degrading over time. I've never ever removed a heatsink before so I've never ever really thought about it before. I just slap on a heatsink, turn on the little beastie, and forget all about the paste part as it runs happily for years and years. Some of you guys are old pros at it. How much breaking down or degradation really goes on?

Is that why you should remove the old paste and apply new paste? I know that you should. But I want to know why. Do you guys that slap these heatsinks on and off day and night or change these waterblocks a lot always scrape off the old paste and apply new paste?

Pris, my agp grfx box will eventually inherit my 939 when I go quadcore at the end of next year. Before that, I hope to have an AMD Athlon 64 FX-60 Toledo for her because by then the price will be just about right - maybe thirty bucks or so. :wink:

Do I need to start buying this stuff in bulk lots if I want to change waterblocks or upgrade my cpu?

[p0lish]

I dont have watercooling but I have ALWAYS replaced the thermal paste after removing the heatsink. There is no reasoning behind it besides the simple fact that I want to make sure the paste is applied correctly. I have never noticed any deterrioration in the paste's structure either.

[GIBSON]

You have to remove it as because you know (or should know ;)) that the paste is just to fill the "microholes" between the cpu and the heatsink/waterblock as to ensure the best contact possible. (hence why you shouldn't use to much, it doesn't convect heat THAT good so you don't want to put too much on it (you're not making a sandwich :lol:)). Thermalpaste sets when temperatures become high enough (after a while under load). When you would remove the heatsink and put another one (or even the same one) back on the applied thermal paste would no longer be able to do what it was designed for, to fill the microholes as pretty obvious you won't be able to put it on that precisely as to make it fit on that ultra-small level. Hence why you need to re-apply a bit of thermalpaste.

[Kougar]

I don't suggest buying in bulk. I've done plenty of installs and reinstalls and have yet to use up one of those tiny little tubes of Arctic Silver 5, which surprises me to no end. GPU/CPU and even some chipsets are not like they once were, all of them generate much more heat than they did 5 years ago. If you don't use thermal paste on a modern CPU it'll overheat and throttle all the time as it slowly cooks itself to death, assuming the machine just doesn't turn off on you.

From their site:

Arctic Silver 5 does not contain any silicone. The suspension fluid is a proprietary mixture of advanced polysynthetic oils that work together to provide three distinctive functional phases. As it comes from the tube, Arctic Silver 5's consistency is engineered for easy application. During the CPU's initial use, the compound thins out to enhance the filling of the microscopic valleys and ensure the best physical contact between the heatsink and the CPU core. Then the compound thickens slightly over the next 50 to 200 hours of use to its final consistency designed for long-term stability.

There really isn't that much breakdown or degredation as far as I've seen... only once or twice did the old material seem pretty dried out and useless. As they said, in the case of high-performance compounds like AS5, they rely on microscopic particles of silver and other compounds. It's designed to "set" or "cure" to reach it's full performance, and after a certain length of time it will no longer cure... so if you use old already used paste it won't fully set nor "cure", and assuming it's still a grease and not more of a powder at that point. Using fresh stuff guarantees it's going to work, and you can be sure that unless the old stuff is still brand new, it'll just work at least a couple degrees better.

[Bio-Hazard]

No bulk buying my friend, there is a shelf life for the stuff and it will go bad over time, fresh stock is best.
I'll have to dig it up, but a thermal engineer friend (Delphi) of mine posted this info about shelf life/install life some time back on a no defunked site, but I still have access to the info.
Most of what you hear about alot of the different TIM's doesn't apply to water cooling, some TIM's require heat cycles to cure, that required heat is normally not generated in most of todays liquid cooling systems, Swiftech has/had some info up on their site in regardes to this. For a water cooling loop, you need a TIM that functions/cures well at lower temps that standard HSF (Arctic Silver Céramique).

[Null]

Thanks for all the info guys. Much appreciated. Haven't had a chance yet to read anything tonight. Hopefully, I'll get to Swiftech in a day or two, sbrehm.

So, I take it that there is a preferred thermal compound for heatsinks and another for waterblocks?

If so, then what's the best for each application?

[Kougar]

Sbrehm mentioned the likely best compound for watercooling, Arctic Silver Céramique. AS5 is generally regarded as the best for non-watercooling.

[GIBSON]

Sbrehm mentioned the likely best compound for watercooling, Arctic Silver Céramique. AS5 is generally regarded as the best for non-watercooling.

Yup, as far as I know that's the way it is.

[Bio-Hazard]

Some thermal engineer folks say that Shin-Etsu's G-751 and X-23-7762 performs better than Arctic Silver. When it first came out I remember reading a review or to where the Shin-Etsu did preform slightly better, but the price of the Shin-Etsu is somewhat on the high side. Corsair did ship this TIM with their first water cooling unit if I remember correctly, but reverted to standard everyday siicon stuff on their later units due to costs.
I also have a tube of some new TherMax XtFlux-GA (pre-release) that seems to work very very well, but it's just a pain in the butt to work with.

http://www.thermaxtech.com/product.html

[Null]

The place that carries the Asetek Waterchill Xternal (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=202&products_id=20704) watercooling kit that I want also sells both Arctic Silver Céramique and Arctic Silver 5.

I'll pick up a tube of each and a hose cutter. At this time, I think that I'm going to hold off on non-conductive fluid.

Are there any other goodies I should consider when ordering?

Note: I know now what a Switftech waterblock looks like.

[GIBSON]

You only need the Arctic Silver Céramique, no need for the AS5!

[Null]

You only need the Arctic Silver Céramique, no need for the AS5!

Understood. The AS5 is when Pris (http://www.bjorn3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10749) (my grfx box) inherits my 939 mobo. She still might be air cooled.

[markkleb]

Also I use ArcticSilver-5 on my chipset and GPU.

A lot of people like the Ceramique because it dosent conduct electricity so if ur a little sloppy it wont cause a short like the AS-5 sometimes does because it has a lot of silver in it.

[werty316]

I prefer either but Ceramique is a litte thick which makes spreading more annoying.

[GIBSON]

I prefer either but Ceramique is a litte thick which makes spreading more annoying.

Meh, I didn't spread mine when installing my watercooling, just a drop on it and pressure should do the rest. You can't get airbubles in it this way as well.

[werty316]

Everyone has their preference ;)

[Bio-Hazard]

That they do, I also use nothing but Ceramique anymore, but I spread mine to take full advantage of the full cooling area on my APOGEE WB........;)

[Kougar]

As a sidenote since we're discussing how to apply the stuff...

C2D users are supposed to put a dab on the middle of the IHS, then "twist" the cooler around clockwise/counter-clockwise while seated on the CPU, before clamping it down. This is to fix the issue with some of Intel's IHS slugs not being machine flat. This is actually suggested by Arctic Silver as well.

[Bio-Hazard]

Yup, that's the way it's supposed to be applied..........;) Only problem with that method is that the TIM won't cover the entire surface area of the IHS with that method, and depending on the internal design of the water block, without 100% coverage of the IHS, you are losing a portion of the cooling potential of the block. That's why I spread mine over the entire surface of the IHS...................;) There is a meaning to my maddness sometimes...........:)

[werty316]

Yup, that's the way it's supposed to be applied..........;) Only problem with that method is that the TIM won't cover the entire surface area of the IHS with that method, and depending on the internal design of the water block, without 100% coverage of the IHS, you are losing a portion of the cooling potential of the block. That's why I spread mine over the entire surface of the IHS...................;) There is a meaning to my maddness sometimes...........:)
Exactly what I do and this way your are using the full surface of the IHS even if the core is located in the center.

[GIBSON]

Yup, that's the way it's supposed to be applied..........;) Only problem with that method is that the TIM won't cover the entire surface area of the IHS with that method, and depending on the internal design of the water block, without 100% coverage of the IHS, you are losing a portion of the cooling potential of the block. That's why I spread mine over the entire surface of the IHS...................;) There is a meaning to my maddness sometimes...........:)
Good point. I'd might try it your way next time... I just think you tend to put a too thick layer if you spread it out...

[werty316]

Good point. I'd might try it your way next time... I just think you tend to put a too thick layer if you spread it out...
You don't apply TIM to the cover the entire IHS without using something to spread it so there wouldn't be a think layer since you are spreading it ;)

[Bio-Hazard]

I always spread mine out with a old credit card, but anything with a straight edge will work fine. Just make it as thin and even as possible.............;)

[werty316]

I always spread mine out with a old credit card, but anything with a straight edge will work fine. Just make it as thin and even as possible.............;)
Yeppers as TIM is really only used to fill in the microscopic gaps in a HSF so there is full contact between it and the CPU.

[Null]

Ok, so I've moved up my timetable to the 15th of this month. I'll order my watercooling external kit on Wednesday the 15th, hoping that it'll be here by Friday the 17th.

Who's on call that weekend? :wink:

I want to take temp reading (Asus PC Probe is all I got) and do some benchies at both stock and overclock before I go watercooling mania.

Anybody got any ideas before I rip off my Thermalright XP-90C air cooling wonder machine?

[Kougar]

Did you try Coretemp yet? It should be pretty accurate since it reads the temp right off the CPU, and has nothing to do with the board components or BIOS.

[Null]

Did you try Coretemp yet? It should be pretty accurate since it reads the temp right off the CPU, and has nothing to do with the board components or BIOS.

I pulled that in after reading your post here on the forum. Thanks for the heads up.

CoreTemp fluctuates between 38-45C @ 63-65% CPU utilization.

Asus PC Probe II shows me at a steady 41C.

That's a fairly accurate average.

[dracos]

I've found that the Zalman stuff works very well... nice glass bottle with brush to spread it...

I do like the Ceramique though, it drops 1-2 degrees off the AS5

[GIBSON]

You don't apply TIM to the cover the entire IHS without using something to spread it so there wouldn't be a think layer since you are spreading it ;)
Yes I know, but if u think about it, even a really thin layer still is too much really. As you said, it's only to fill up the microscopic valleys in the metal, so if you put a really thin layer on, it's still a lot more than really needed. If you look at it this way, best thing would probably be to put some on and scrape it off again, that would make sure the "valleys" ar filled, without putting stuff on the already flush surface. Just a thought ;-)

[werty316]

You still need to use TIM to make sure there is full contact between the CPU and HSF. Would you install a HSF without using TIM?

[GIBSON]

You still need to use TIM to make sure there is full contact between the CPU and HSF. Would you install a HSF without using TIM?
NO, but what I mean is that in theory the slightest layer should be enough.

[werty316]

NO, but what I mean is that in theory the slightest layer should be enough.
Oh right, right; as general rule you should always apply a layer as thin as possible.