New Soundcard

[westy87]

Can any 1 suggest a good quaity sound card with an optical spdif output on it that would be better than onboard soundmax HD audio thats on my Mobo and around about $150Au (100ish US)

[Victor]

did you check out our review on this card
http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=1051

[westy87]

wow looks great for only $70 US

I couldn't find anyone selling this in Australia just from searching Google though. Does newegg ship to Aus?

[harry18]

thats a good sound card for the price tho, there are quite a few US shops that ship worldwide too, not new egg tho.

[westy87]

Well, its been a few months and I finally ended up ordering the HT Omega Striker 7.1 lol

[Schwarz]

I'd say get anything but a x-fi card.
I have no problem with my sound card its just that I hate creative and wish people wouldn't support those rip offs.
They offer only a 1 year warranty on their xfi cards.
Shows that they don't have much faith in their product line.

[PP Mguire]

It only shwos that they dont care about the customer. Umm isnt there a brand thats real popular down there called like Auzentech or something? I heard they are getting soem rights to EAX so another brand can use EAX as well.

[slugbug]

The Chaintech AV-710 is a good card for anyone on a budget. The SPDIF out sound quality is great.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829120103

[Schwarz]

Auzentech or something like that, I remember reading a bunch of reviews about them and they are very good cards.

[westy87]

Ye Auzentech Xplosion I think it is. I remember readin up on that one when choosing my card. Basically the Striker has the same chip as the Xplosion (CM8770 or soemthing), its just that the Xplosion has some extra features I have no need for which makes it $50Au more and it doesnt have the seperate optical in, it just has 1 optical which can do either and 1 coax which can do either, whereas the Striker I think has 1 optical for 1, 1 for out and a coax that does both. Both cards also have cd_SPDIF in also

[PP Mguire]

I think the difference really is in performance. I know alot of guys who swear by that Xplosion card. Idk this HT looks pretty good. I stand by onboard but i might just get that card.

[westy87]

The HT? The HT Omega Claro (next model up from Striker) won the Golden bear award here. And you can go even further to the HT Omega Claro Plus

[Schwarz]

Well if you want a review of the HT Omega CLARO 7.1 Channel Sound Card
You can check out bjorn3d's review they had a while back.
Here's the link if you want to check it out.
It scored pretty well in the bjorn3d labs.
http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=1051

[edit] ah you posted it right before me...anyways here's the link for those who want to check it out.
very good soundcard it seems.

[westy87]

lol Shwarz, I pressed submit and like 5 seconds later got an email saying there was a new post in this thread and im like wtf, why'd it let me know about my own post. Haha. 11:01 and 11:01

[Schwarz]

Yah I was probably typing while you were doing the same.
Wonder if we hit reply at the same time though...
Wonder if scott has the seconds when people posts in a log file to see how close we were of each other.

[Frag Maniac]

Hmmm, odd they only list Newegg as a US retail source and you can't find any others Googling either. I don't see the standard Claro on Newegg anymore but I do like the design of the Claro+ better. It has the AD 8620 BR Opamp on the front audio channels for analog stereo listening, way better for music IMO.

Someone on the customer reviews at Newegg said the analog front channel amp is the only added feature over the Claro though so I don't think the standard Clario is $100 US as mentioned above. Some of the info I read said the standard Claro is supposed to be $140, not $100.

I'll probably be calling HT Omega and ask them about this product. Consistent remarks of way better drivers in itself are enough incentive to rethink my building my next rig with an X-Fi. I have an M-Audio Revolution 5.1 in my current rig which has great sound with nice non solid state capacitor sound quality but it's short on features.

I've been looking for something with equal sound quality but more features for some time and often think the X-Fis wouldn't be nearly as good in sound quality. Here's another more detailed review on the Claro btw: http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2007/03/09/HT_Omega_Claro/1 (http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2007/03/09/HT_Omega_Claro/1)

Interesting to note is how he compared the bass quality in the Sondigo to the Claro. I am skeptical about the idea of using all solid state capacitors as the Claro has. You get great power output as evidenced by the signal to noise ratio and long life, but often end up with a more digital sound which doesn't always come off good in some sources like stereo music. I'm not sure if the Claro+ uses non solid state capacitors for the analog front channel amp but I will find out from HT Omega.

Another interesting thing I found when reading comparisons between this card and the X-Fi is the X-Fi, though using less CPU%, uses more RAM. In fact it was said that the Creative overall uses MORE system resources, not less. The Claro+ also has EAX2, which some say is plenty adequate. Personally though on my M-Audio, even with games that support the software driven EAX it can decode, I don't think it sounds any better than the 5.1 Circle Surround DSP built into the software. My M-Audio averages about 3%-6% CPU drain, apparently this Claro sucks up a bit more than that.

The added volume may be worth it in itself on soft dialog in movies though. One thing that concerns me though is I've read the optical audio in won't decode Dolby 5.1 and is PCM only, so it likely won't work to send the 5.1 sound from my HDTV to the speakers, very disconcerting. This is one of the main things about my M-Audio that is lacking other than not being able to record software sound sources (Fraps, etc).

[Schwarz]

Good thing that you have also talked about the drivers.
So far creative has released only one set of drivers on the web for the X-fi.
Anyways that I'm aware of.
Check to see what kind of warranty the HT Omega has.
If its anything more then one year that would be the sound card i'd go for.

[PP Mguire]

The review was posted by Victor already in like the second post of the thread, and yes i was talking about that card. ITs only 80 bucks guys ;)

[Frag Maniac]

Newegg lists the warranty on the Striker as being 1yr parts & labor, I imagine it would be the same with the Claro. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829271001 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829271001)

As for US pricing on the Claro, where are you guys sourcing it from?

As for drivers, it's strange that though my M-Audio Revo 5.1 has never had a driver update since it hit the market over 3 yrs ago, I haven't had any compatibility issues with games, movies, etc, or any popping, crackling, etc, that Creative customers complain of.

[PP Mguire]

Newegg.com. Only online place i shop at.

[westy87]

The review was posted by Victor already in like the second post of the thread, and yes i was talking about that card. ITs only 80 bucks guys ;)

In the review, at the end, they say the Claro is only like $80, however thats the Striker's price and he even links to the striker. I alerted them to it ages ago but it was never edited

[Frag Maniac]

Yep, like I said, the Claro is retail about $140.

http://www.cluboc.net/reviews/sound/HT_Omega/Claro/index.htm (http://www.cluboc.net/reviews/sound/HT_Omega/Claro/index.htm)

[Schwarz]

Its not much considering you will pay a lot more for a creative card.
(Fatal1ty cough cough...)

[PP Mguire]

If i bought a Fatal1ty card i could get one right now for about 95 bucks at Frys. And i didnt notice it was the Striker, but honestly i dont see much of a difference.

[Schwarz]

Its sound.
Most people aren't audiophiles and will never know the difference.

[PP Mguire]

Hehe i am though and i LOVE great sound.

[Schwarz]

Are you really though.
I mean I do love a good sound system but are you ears that good to be able to hear let's say a ant walking if you were trying to hear it.

[Frag Maniac]

You can quite often get a Fatal1ty Xtreme Gamer Pro Series with X-Ram at Newegg on rebate for $100 vs the norm $150. Admittedly I've often been tempted by such deals considering all the features the X-Fis have. However, does being able to get them dirt cheap make them a good sounding card? I tend to think it's a sign of overstock due to just the opposite along with driver and other problems. I don't know if you guys know it or not but Creative will soon be allowing other card manufacturers to use the X-Fi chips on their cards. This I read last night on a review of a Sondigo Inferno, which some say is better than the HT Omega Claro. Thus we will soon see other cards with EAX 5 on them. I'm not sure this is Creative's decision or the law mandating that EAX is a manufacturing standard now and must be accessible to other manufacturers within a set amount of years of it's release.

My only comparison of a Creative card to my M-Audio Revo 5.1 was when I tried an Audigy 2 ZS Gamer THX 6.1 card. The Creative didn't come anywhere near the sound quality of the much less expensive M-A Revo. You can get the 5.1 Revo for about $70. The ONLY trade off for me has been not being able to record sound in Fraps (have to use onboard sound) and having to listen to HDTV broadcasts in 2.1 stereo. The latter, however, I'm finding to be a common trade off of even high end cards and I'm not sure I buy that the Creatives can play HD broadcasts in 5.1 Dolby (patched in to the sound card from TV) even if you purchase the required I/O adapter that models without the bay mounted control box lack.

[PP Mguire]

I don't know if you guys know it or not but Creative will soon be allowing other card manufacturers to use the X-Fi chips on their cardsThats what i was talking about earlier. Auzentech will have EAX 5 chips on their newer cards and will probably be ALOT better than Creative cards. But like i mentioend, i can get a Fatal1ty card for 80 bucks at Frys right now but i hate Creative cards so screw it.
Are you really though.It would be impossible to hear an ANT for crying out loud, but yes i am. I use my ears for a living. Me and my dad run pro audio and lights for bands professionaly and have to have good ears to be able to run it right. been doing it for 5 years, pretty sure im an audiophile considering ive had about 6 calls last week alone on helping people setup their raidos, 5.1s, Car systems ect.

[Schwarz]

Oh ok I was just asking PP
I see a lot of people saying they are audiophiles but can't hear *&*& ...
If you say you are i believe you lol.

[westy87]

The card came in nice n early at 8am this morning. Installation was a breeze, software is easy to use, testng it out on music and games etc via optical to my home theatre set and is sounding great. The only thing I've having problems with is getting enough bass to my sub when listening to music, it seems to wanna send that to my individual speakers not the sub. Testing out diff settings now to see what I can do to fix it

[Frag Maniac]

So which one did you get? I still haven't found a place that has the standard Claro in stock.

[PP Mguire]

Its cool, and unlike other people i have pics to back it up :D

[westy87]

I got the Striker 7.1

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829271002

There is the standard claro, and it says it will have more stock in 2 days (ie the 23rd)

[PP Mguire]

Wow thats hella exspensive. I think ill stick with the $80 one.

[Frag Maniac]

Wow thats hella exspensive. I think ill stick with the $80 one.LOL, I thought you were the audiophile guy?....Just kidding, I don't like high prices either, but I gotta have good sound. The analog amp is what impresses me on the Claro+, but unfortunately it's only on the front channels. From the description I read in a comparison review between the Claro and Sondigo though, I may like the Sondigo Inferno better than either, and it's only $80 too. One BIG tradeoff though, according to one of the Newegg reviewers it doesn't support Open AL, which means no sound in OpenGL games. I'll have to ask Sondigo if that's true, maybe they can firmware update if it is. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829156003 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829156003)

Westy, I swear they didn't have the Claro on their site last night, they must have just added it. I'm going to call them and tell them I've seen it for $140 MSRP way back in January though and see what they say.

There was a product a while ago they had for more than the manufacturer listed it and when I told them about it a few days later the price was adjusted.

[westy87]

Hey frag, you have to be tricky to find the claro. I had same problem months ago when looking for it. You can't get to it normally through browsing their soundcards, you have to go google, type HT Omega Claro Newegg. and there you have it

[PP Mguire]

I am an audiophile but where my computer is concernd i dont spend a whole lot of money on sound. Thats why i use onboard sound becasue its good and cheap. I take my audiophileness into the EQs on the computer (WMP and nVidia audio dealy), amps and speakers.

[Frag Maniac]

Thats why i use onboard sound becasue its good and cheap.I don't know if you mean very cheap when you say "good and cheap" or it sounds good enough to you, but I certainly wouldn't suffice with it when you can get something like an M-Audio for only $70 that is among the best sounding cards going. I've yet to hear an onboard audio chipset that is anywhere near satisfactory to my ears whether HD capable or not. The severely limited frequency response, high THD, low signal to noise ratio and high CPU drain are plenty reasons not to use it. In fact the more you use your PC for a variety of things the more noticable the lack in sound quality is.

[westy87]

Oh and i forgot to mention. I can't connect my front panel audio, because the cords provided in my case are a few inches too short to reach the front panel socket on the card. For some reason they have placed the front panel socket at the slot side of the card, not the end like with the 2nd coax, cd and aux in inputs

[PP Mguire]

I don't know if you mean very cheap when you say "good and cheap" or it sounds good enough to you, but I certainly wouldn't suffice with it when you can get something like an M-Audio for only $70 that is among the best sounding cards going. I've yet to hear an onboard audio chipset that is anywhere near satisfactory to my ears whether HD capable or not. The severely limited frequency response, high THD, low signal to noise ratio and high CPU drain are plenty reasons not to use it. In fact the more you use your PC for a variety of things the more noticable the lack in sound quality is.Ahaha ive had somebody say my onboard sounds better than his Xtreme Music. Its all in how you work it dude and what you have behind it. And, i dont have 70 bucks to put a sound card in to saturate my PCI bus which will do the same to my CPU ;) Whether it has its own processor or not for sound it still uses CPU. And obviously, since i max everything out its not doing to bad.

[westy87]

ye the onboard sound i was replacing was really actually pretty good for analogue but the digital sucked. Thats all i really wanted this card for. I can't hear much difference via analogue though b/w this and the onboard

[PP Mguire]

I admit the SPDIF sucks on the output but i dont use it anyways. I have stereo PA towers in my room so i dont worry about 5.1 or anything like that.

[Frag Maniac]

Its all in how you work it dude and what you have behind it.There's no real way to "work it" into having a more dynamic frequency response, lower THD, and higher signal to noise ratio, and onboard sound typically DOES take more, not less CPU drain, there are bench tests proving it. You're pretty much stuck with the limitations of onboard sound and even if you try and DSP color it with software your not going to get more sound quality, just synthetic sound. No amount of high end amplification is going to make up for what is essentially a crappy preamp in onboard sound either.

I'm not saying it's out of the ordinary for people to suffice with onboard sound, it's quite common really. I just don't see those considering themselves audiophiles doing it, especially when they've bought enough cpu parts, upgrades, and aftermarket do dads to easily afford a lesser expensive sound card like those in the $70-$80 range which are noticably better sounding.

[PP Mguire]

Ok you have your opinion, and i have what i have right here. Take it or leave it, but i know many people who would say your wrong. Its sorta like getting 6k outa this machine with an overclocked 3000+. I was told i couldnt, and so i proved them wrong. I still find it funny how my friend says i get better sound than he does with his Xtreme Gamer, which is an X-FI card BTW.

[westy87]

I just bought the Fort Minor cd, and man, playing it on this thing through my 5.1 is so freakin awesome... ahhhh loving it. Favourite song now is In Stereo, love it

[Frag Maniac]

I still find it funny how my friend says i get better sound than he does with his Xtreme Gamer, which is an X-FI card BTW.Suit yourself, but you're talking only two people's opinions among countless others that know you can't make onboard audio sound any better than it does. The common rule of thumb in any audio and video reproduction is you are limited by the quality of the source material and hardware you're using.

I also wouldn't consider even the X-Fi models of Creative's to be a very good example of a good sound card at a good price to compare with. For one thing their "Crystalizer" does little more than amplify already crappy sounding mp3s in frequency ranges it's deficient at. For someone to think it makes the music sound better has ears that are easily fooled.

Creative if anything has always been on the low end of the spectrum sound quality wise and only enjoys such big market share becasue they were the first to make sound cards. In general their products if anything are over priced and overhyped.

If you manage to get a hold of a much more reasonably priced example to compare with, like the M-Audio Revo 5.1 I mentioned, then I would expect the results would be noticably different. That is of course if the review is an honest one with capable ears.:wink:

[PP Mguire]

Ok heres a great example and its what i get people with. I can plug my guitar into a ****ty little Crate practice amp but once i put it through my dads PA it has monster sound that will kick you in the ass and blow away most Marshal stacks. Not only that, i barely have to turn it up so it wont blow. Hows about them apples? Same kinda situation. I was waiting for you to say this
The common rule of thumb in any audio and video reproduction is you are limited by the quality of the source material and hardware you're using.

Material used is crappy 50 dollar practice amp with probably an 8" speaker. Put that through my dads PA and you got hella good sound, that anybody can hear.

Same situation. I play music through my onboard and im getting DAMN good sound through my PA speakers, and amp. Better than most get with their 200-300 dollar 5.1 systems. BTW, frequency? Yea, any sound solution can put it out, its whether your speakers can handle them or not. My 15s in my towers are rated for 20-30hz. Thats damn low, as low as my dads 18" Peavey Black Widow low riders (3200watt peak 1800wat RMS) that we use for our main PA subs for live shows. I use JBL equipment in my room. You can hear me down the road with my windows and doors closed. Oh, and NO distortion of ANY kind. The towers have a 3 way crossover in them, low goes to bottom speaker, mids to middle 15" and highs to the horn. You gonna get crisp clean highs outa your little PC speakers? I think not, and i doubt your sound card can help that at all.

Trust me dude, my dads been in the music and sound business for about 36 years, and me under his wing for 6. I learn everything i can from him and he even has degrees in this crap. I THINK i might know a thing or 2 about sound. With the right nohow you can make anythign sound good. Its all in what you know dude.

[Frag Maniac]

It's sounding more and more like the equipment you're using is no more than the band instrument equivalent of Creative's "Crystalizer". No matter how you say it, you can't severely restrict the source material (games, movies, music, etc,) with onboard audio chips that limit output of dynamic range, sound clarity, and signal to noise ratio and expect what you took away to magically appear with your instruments, amps, and stacks.

I live in a city with lots of music culture and have talked to plenty of musicians that make wild claims, it's quite common really. What we're discussing here is no different than the age old argument ever since low bit rate music hit the net. There are still people out that there believe somehow they can magically transform low bit rate music by enhancing it, just aint gonna happen. You're fooling yourself, or in this case your ears, to believe otherwise. :wink:

[PP Mguire]

Haha ok dude, beleive what you want. I cannot believe you just made a comparrison to professional equipment to that of Creatives POS Crystalizer. Seriously, wtf dude. If you where actualy music related or in the "culture" you would know better.

Seriously, my onboard dosent limit output range. Have you taken a look at what its capable of? 24-bit, 192khz audio. Thats the same as an Audigy card. My bit rate for my music is played at Windows Lossless becasue they are rips from the source file, not crappy MP3s. I dont take MP3s and play them at all. I hate MP3s, becasue 320k bit rate is crap. All of my musics bitrate being outputted is either in the 900k range or over a meg. And outputted to all this.

You CANNOT and SHOULD not relate THIS to Creative POS Crystalizer. Seriously, my sound clarity is above and beyound that you would get through any normal or even exspensive 5.1 speakers. Clarity alone in the highs cannot be compared to my horns. You cannot make a simple speaker have the dynamic high range of a horn. It will not happen, ever.

Seriously, once you have your computer hooked up to equipment like this, then you can start to compare. Until then, you cant argue over something you dont know about. Seriously, dynamic range? I have highs in the 16k range becasue of my horns and lows in the 20hz range beacsue of my 15s. Something your little computer speakers can never handle. I rattle walls and not reaching distortion, soething your speakers cannot do either. That, i would say is awesome sound clarity.

Outputted from sound to this rack (Using only bottom eq, real time analyzer, compressor, and BBE audio compiler) *Top half is for monitor mix for live shows and feedback destroyers well i dont need that with computer*
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/pp_mguire/082307_06351.jpg

Then outputted to this rack which im only using the bottom Crown Amp. (Microtech 1200)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/pp_mguire/082307_06361.jpg

Then outputted to these cabs (2x15" JBL 500watt speakers, and 100watt 1" voice horn)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/pp_mguire/082307_06361.jpg

Seriously, i have pics and the knowledge to back it up. All you can talk about is my onboard sound limiting me. It dosent dude, get that outa your head. Noise ratio? What noise, my audio chip is on a daugter board not solderd onto the actual motherboard. Dont say it goes through the cpu and get noise becasue the information for your PCI sound cards have to have the informatin run through the CPU as well.

Dynamic sound range? Any sound card can output any ranges, its the fact of can your equipment outside of it handle it? Doubtful, not like mine anyways.

And obviously from this picture, im barely pushing anything out which means no distortion from the computer either. And if onboard wasnt capable of pushing out those frequencies then id have to say we have a false advertisement case on our hands with Nvidia huh?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/pp_mguire/sound.jpg

And before you say i dont output the range, here is one of the songs playing at over a meg.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/pp_mguire/Sond2.jpg
Look at the bottom of WMP.

[Frag Maniac]

Well PP, I cetainly didn't read all that and I'll tell you why. I could see in the first partagraph despite your using all that equipment you're overlooking a few major things. There's a LOT more to sound quality than mere sample rates. If you can't even grasp that frequency response, THD, and signal to noise ratio play into the equation you need to educate yourself on the subject.

There's no such thing as a thropughput for onboard sound that isn't somewhat affected by all the above. Tell me what onboard sound you're using and I'll get back to you with the limited frequency response, high THD, and low signal to noise ratio it has. There's no onboard sound out there that isn't lacking in those areas.

I'm getting the impression you, like many whom play with rock music instruments, use so much distortion effects and volume you're masking and/or deafening yourself to the crappy sound quality. You can't make an onboard sound chip produce 20Hz-20,000Hz frequncy range when it's not capable of it. You can't make it have a 108-109 SNR when it's far inferior to that to begin with. And you certainly can't lower it's high distortion levels. You start with a dirty source, you end with a dirty output.

Seems like you've learned everything but the most important and fundamental facts.:wink:

[PP Mguire]

Actualy no ive learned by some of the best guitar players and i use more mids to give me more sustain then distortion. I dont like high distortion like youd get out of a POS Metal Zone. If your so in the music scene like you say you are, you would know what that is, and how crappy the sound is. When i was younger first getting into guitar i used to use lots of distortion not only for the music i play but also to cover up my mistakes. My dad hates the amount of mids i use now becasue i get so much tone and sustain that i barely have any saturation becasue i dont need it. I can take a pic of my amp settings if you will. And its quite simple what i use, Google my SLI-DR, they are all the same. I can also take a picture of the box. Most of your PCI sound cards all they boast is 24-bit and 192khz. Which, i have the same.

As for distortion from my onboard. You saw the pictures, maybe you should have read it an educated yourself with what im doing. You cant have any distortion if you have very little gain to begin with. That, is one of the first things you should learn when dealing with sound. And the bass EQ settings on the card dont have as low as 20hz, but go down to 50 which is low enough for my 31band EQ to pick up and give response to.