2000-02 Audi S4 Vs. BMW M3 1997-99

[AJ.]

The title says it all. What would you choose? I'm looking for a new (used) car and I want something with a little grunt.

Here's a little info about both.

Audi S4
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=44342

BMW M3
http://www.motortrend.com/buyersguide/preowned/112_0302_1995_1999_bmw_m3

BMW is a little pricier than the Audi, but not by much. I'm looking to score either one of them for ~10K.

[zachig]

The title says it all. What would you choose? I'm looking for a new (used) car and I want something with a little grunt.

Here's a little info about both.

Audi S4
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=44342

BMW M3
http://www.motortrend.com/buyersguide/preowned/112_0302_1995_1999_bmw_m3

BMW is a little pricier than the Audi, but not by much. I'm looking to score either one of them for ~10K.
I would personally go with the BMW, as I like bimmers more, even though it will be about 5 years older from the Audi.

GOOD LUCK and keep us updated which car you finally got...:grin:

[AJ.]

GOOD LUCK and keep us updated which car you finally got...:grin:

Thanks and will do. ;-)

[Miker]

Go to a Pontiac Dealer and test drive a 2006 GTO. It will run you about $20k now, with 400HP, leather seats and so on. That is my personal daily driver. (I have a Torrid Red GTO, auto tran. with Red leather.) The card has one option, bigger wheels, don’t get them, makes the ride a lot harsher and the car hydroplanes a lot more. For 20k you get a 6disk in dash Blaupunkt radio, colored leather seats, 400HP that will spin the tires at 60MPH with an AUTO! I used a flash tool to remove the speedlimiter and have got to 178MPH before and it was still pulling hard, my guess is it will get to 195 or so.

I drive on the highway a lot going from FL to SC to MD and I can tell you it is faster then a Honda NSX, Mustang 500GT (I was surprised till I looked it up and it had 440HP and weighed 1000lbs more then a GTO at 4 times the cost) but is isn't as “fast” as an unmarked White Mustang cop...

*Edit* They had really bad marketing so they didn't sell well, so most dealers still have them.

[AJ.]

I'm not really too fond of Pontiac or any American car manufacturer for that matter. I personally find them last a whole lot less longer than Japanese or German engineered cars. Plus, the GTO is way out of my price range and it's not exactly ideal for a college student.

Although, it is pretty impressive. Maybe when I finish my degree in game programming. ;-)

[Miker]

I am in college... XD. I got it when I was 16. It is not made by Pontiac, it is imported by them. It is really a Australian made Holden Monaro with Pontiac badging. It has great quality, and good gas mileage for 400HP. (I average 21 from the trip computer (Worth noting my speed average is 58MPH)) It has 20k Miles already and runs and looks just like new. Only work ever done to it was an oil change every 3k Miles and I got racing brakepads. It has a Chevy LS2 engine, all aluminum block and heads, it is push rod not overhead cam so it will run forever.

[Miker]

I would do with a Audi out of the 2. BMWs cost a lot to repair and maintain.

(PS. In college, (started) at 16, girls dig the GTO!

[AJ.]

I would do with a Audi out of the 2. BMWs cost a lot to repair and maintain.

(PS. In college, (started) at 16, girls dig the GTO!

Of course they will. They can hear you coming from a mile away lol. That car screams attention. ;-)

Although a slightly modified Audi S4 can turn some heads :lol:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-xL0yFacPJk&feature=related

[SonicWRX]

Can't say i know much about the German world of cars but i do know this. if its grunt you want than the S4 is the way to go. For a bit more money after you have the car the S4 will come alive with the just the right tune put to it. The Twin Turbo they put in that car has way more in it than they sold it with

[westy87]

OK so being an Australian who loves Holden Monaro's Miker just gained 10000000000 respect points!

But the Audi or BMW? Audi all the way!

I've never liked the looks of BMW's

[Miker]

Well, my dad works all over the world and I travel with him, and when he was working in Australia his boss had a SV-Holden Monaro, and I loved it. So, when I learned Pontiac was importing them I just had to get one. So glad I was broke and had to wait till they put the hood scoop and LS2 in it. It is the only good Pontiac in that last 20 year! They had the right idea; they called it a GTO, for the raw power, not because it looks the same. I hate the new Mustangs, they are so stuck in the past with the styling, move on!

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o81/mikerider123/DSCN2422.jpg

[tomato]

You ask Ford to get out of the past with the Mustang, yet your Pontiac looks like a 90's Acura Integra :? It's true that the new GTO bombed over here, but GM in general has had terrible stying until recently, very recently. Ford's mustang is selling like crazy, partially due to the modern/retro combination styling. You are not the main target market for this new Mustang, but rather the 30-40 somethings that want to re-visit their youth. Same goes for the upcoming Chevy Camaro...

AJ, either one of those vehicles would do. It's all about your personal preference ;) Between those two models, I'd go for the Audi over the too-boxy BMW.

[darkorb]

Haha AJ, slightly modified.. :P

[Miker]

If it wasn't red it would be a sleeper car... for $30k, you get a POS Mustang, $30k (in 2006) got you a great car, a $80 Mustang GT500 is almost as good as a GTO.

[werty316]

Color would make it a sleeper huh... sure it would.

[Miker]

A black one just blends in, it is quiet... The whole not being able to leave a red light with out spinning the tires sorda gives it away though.

[tomato]

LOL, read it and weep, I'm afraid:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/8908/2005-pontiac-gto-v-2005-ford-mustang-gt.html

Ford Mustang FTW.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/8963/10best-winners-and-losers-page2.html

"LOSER: Last year, Pontiac expected to sell 18,000 copies of its 350-hp GTO—had hoped, in fact, that the mildly made-over Holden Monaro might even become a successor to the F-body Camaro and Firebird. Instead, the Australian-built muscle car tanked deeper than a Roto-Rooter snake. Only 8229 copies had been sold nine months into the year, with a 168-day supply filling up dealer lots.

Automotive News observed, "So far, the revived Goat looks like a turkey," andAutocar remarked, "The Goat is turning out to be a bit of a dog."

Last June, just when Pontiac most needed some sort of heaven-sent GTO marketing boost, actor Val Kilmer was seen driving a GTO. Unfortunately, his was a convertible, circa 1969."

[werty316]

A car painted pink can make a car look like a sleeper just as much as a car painted red or black since a "sleeper" is a vehicle with a modified engine with the exterior left at stock.

[Miker]

Um, GTO is 100HP more? GTO is a Lim-slip rear? GTO has a independent rear? GTO has 4 wheel vented disks?

Mustang GT won that test because "gotta-have-it factor GT-25 GTO-18"

GTO is a better car, don't flame over it. I never said the GTO sold more, or wasn't a total flop in the market.

*EDIT* I test drove a GTO, a Mustang GT500, '99 NSX, Corvette Z06 and a Lotus Elise Sport. I would have got the Elise, but at 6'3 I was to tall for it. :-( I liked the Z06 but didn't have enough money.

[werty316]

You would have gotten an Elise.. are you freakin rich or something? That car costs more than twice that of a GTO.

You say a GTO is a better car, when compared to a Mustang, because you own one and are biased towards it.

[Miker]

Elise was $43k... GTO was $32k when I got it. It was a 2004 Elise Sport, new at the dealer.

[Miker]

GTO is Rare, Mustang you see 20 a day. I have seen maybe 10 GTOs every since I got mine.

GTO has quality, Mustang is a Ford...

GTO has aluminum block and heads, Mustang GT500 iron block, aluminum heads.

[borschtBomber[SS]]

I'm calling BS...no way a stock GTO beats a stock GT500......sorry.

and how do you prove that 'GTO has quality'? If I'm not mistaken GM hasn't exactly been top notch with quality

[werty316]

GTO is rare because no one wants to buy them, especially american buyers since it is not even built in the US and the styling isn't muscle-ish; that alone is an insult to the GTO muscle car heritage.

[darkorb]

oh burn

[Miker]

;109278']I'm calling BS...no way a stock GTO beats a stock GT500......sorry.

and how do you prove that 'GTO has quality'? If I'm not mistaken GM hasn't exactly been top notch with quality

Um, I never said GM's were good, I hate American cars, I like Austrian made cars which the GTO is, it is a Austrian made Holden. GTO has a 6-Disk in dash BleuPunkt Stereo, leather bucket seats front and rear, brushed aluminum door handles even. Ford loves there chromed plastic.

When I drove a GT500 I just didn't like it, hard seats, steering wheel was to plastic, brakes sucked, transmission gearing was so wierd, clutch so stiff and "poppy". Then driving back from FL I stopped at the GA reststop (i-95) and there was a GT500, the guy was around 25 and looked at my car, said it looks nice but it isn't 500hp. Coming onto the on ramp, him following me I floored it and go up to about 150mph, and he was close, but not quite as fast. It was close enough that it could've just been the fact I had a auto and he had a stick and he just couldn't shift as fast.

Official Pontiac Picture.
http://www.pontiac.com/images/gallery/gto/sm_image5_enlarge.jpg
My car.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o81/mikerider123/DSCN2407.jpg

[Miker]

GTO is rare because no one wants to buy them, especially american buyers since it is not even built in the US and the styling isn't muscle-ish; that alone is an insult to the GTO muscle car heritage.

Werty... They didn't advertise them... Its is not an insult is is 400HP, and GTOs were always more cruiser then muscle.

[werty316]

400HP doesn't make it a good car.

An amercian muscle car not made in the US is not an insult to the GTO heritage??? sure it isn't...

Its funny how a S4 vs M3 thread turned into a GTO flame war :dielaffin:

One thing I find it hard to believe is how a 16 year student can afford a $30k dollar car; doin' some dealing on the side while studying for exams?

[Miker]

Street racing in Charleston... Duh... You can bring in $500 a night.

[werty316]

You won't be street racin' when you kill someone.

Street racing in Charleston... Duh... You can bring in $500 a night.
You might as well be a drug dealer then if you are street racing.

$500 a night doesn't get you the car especially since you are 16 with no credit unless you bought the car at a chop shop.

[Miker]

It is a GTO, not a gt500, I won't randomly veer off the road into some old lady.

[werty316]

Exactly, its just a GTO :dielaffin:

[borschtBomber[SS]]

lmao...now I know your smoking something. My guess is the guy in the GT500 couldn't drive worth a lick...cause no way in hell you could beat a manual GT500 in an automatic GTO...no way, no how...not if he could even remotely drive.

[westy87]

You guys obviously havnt seen how damned well these monaro's go, or GTO as you call them (silly name but thats America for you! I remember watching a docco about why they called it the GTO and they said Americans understand shorter names better lmao).

I'm just surprised they havnt released the Holden Clubsport HSV R8, IMO it flogs all over the monaro.

And It's funny you guys calling the GTo a muscle car. I've never heard any 1 in Aus even come close to describing it as a muscle car, just a fast car!


Now where were we? Oh yes, Audi = sexy, BMW = a box

[Miker]

You guys obviously havnt seen how damned well these monaro's go, or GTO as you call them (silly name but thats America for you! I remember watching a docco about why they called it the GTO and they said Americans understand shorter names better lmao).

I'm just surprised they havnt released the Holden Clubsport HSV R8, IMO it flogs all over the monaro.

And It's funny you guys calling the GTo a muscle car. I've never heard any 1 in Aus even come close to describing it as a muscle car, just a fast car!


Now where were we? Oh yes, Audi = sexy, BMW = a box

Thanks, just a fast car! GTO auto shifts in 1/10th a second, Manual GT500 with that crap clutch, 1 second tops.

[AJ.]

I've opted for the Audi since they're generally cheaper than M3's. Although, I still wouldn't mind an M3 lol. I guess it all comes down to which good deal comes up first.

The search has officially started. :smile:

[Miker]

Audi is more of a young dude car, get a BMW when you are 60.

[darkorb]

saw a 1991 BMW 850i with 50,000K for only $9,000

either good deal, or somtins wrong with it

[werty316]

Audi is more of a young dude car, get a BMW when you are 60.
What are you basing that on? Go search for some M series videos on YouTube.

[Miker]

In America, at least the east coast, you don't really see young dudes in BMWs.

[werty316]

So just because you don't see any young people with a BMW you would assume they are for old people? I guess you don't or haven't seen alot of tuner videos.

[Miker]

I usually see older females, driving early 90s BMWs; newer BMWs would be over 50 year old males.

[darkorb]

Well BMW's arent cheap so i can see where ur getting this older generation stuff from.

Older 50 males? My dad has had a beamer since he was 30. he had a 328, then a 528 and now the new 525.

my mom also had a 528.

yea i guess all beamer drivers are 50+!

[westy87]

Its funny cause all the people I know of that drive BMW's around in this city are 40+ males, except my mate who got one off of his 40+ dad!

[darkorb]

the cars aint cheap..

[borschtBomber[SS]]

Of the two, I would choose the Audi. They are both good cars, i just prefer the looks of the Audi myself.

[AJ.]

BMW's are definitely not for old people. It's just by the time you could afford one, you'll be old.... that is, if you make money legally lol.

Thanks for the input guys. :)

[s2gordon]

Hi, i'm new to the board and i just had to post to this...
to the original poster.. Go with the Audi, looks better and is probably cheaper to maintian than the Bimmer.

To "MIKER" you sir are full of crap...
As a fellow GTO owner, 2005 MidnightBlue w/ 6spd, There is no way in HELL you, being fully stock, beat a GT500. You state u ran up to 150mph on I-95, like an idiot. That right there should be your biggest clue the GT500 driver had more sense than u to run up to those speeds on a public road.

The GT500 runs 1/4 times of 12.4-12.8 and trap 112 - 115 and weighs 3896 lbs. The GTO traps 13.4 - 12.8 ( the fastest time recorded for a STOCK gto on www.ls2gto.com) and traps around 107. The only Stock ls2 vehicle that can beat a gt500 is a vett and that's because it weighs 3280 lbs and at high speed runs it's more aerodynamic than a GT500.

The GTO is a quick car it'll beat stock GT's some LS1 vetts, based on drivers, but no way in hell will u beat a stock GT500 if the driver is really trying.

[SonicWRX]

A few points...

AJ: get what ever car you like the best. The most important thing is that you like the car and are happy with it. As far as performance goes the Audi has more power but is heavier. So its going to be on par the the M3 but the M3 will out do the Audi in most areas due to the lighter curb weight. However Performance should not be your main goal. Just when you think you are at the top some dude with a stock looking 2000 Camaro RS will roll up and and put you in your place. Little will you know that under the hood there is a Twin Turbo 427 putting down 800+ at the rear wheels... No matter where you go or what you do someone will always be bigger, better, badder or faster. It's a fact of life. Just get the car that YOU like. thats all that matters.

Muscle car is a bit misleading these days. The requirements are not all that much and has little to do with over all power. These days all you need is a V8 and rear wheel drive and American made (or badged in the GTO's case). The GTO got its Muscle car status from its namesake. At first it fell short in most areas however Pontiac listened and made improvements to the car and it is much better now. However the Poor start to its new life still follows it and people shy away from it.

ON the GT500 vs. the GTO What Miker says it perfectly reasonable. Heres how:
The GTO has a weight some where between 3725 and 3821 depending on where you look. The GT500 has a weight of 3850 and 4130 again depending on where you look. So on average the GT500 is heavier. The GTO has 400HP and 400Tq (torque). The GT500 has 500HP and 480Tq. Only havening 80 more Tq is not enough to over come the extra weight. The common misconception is that HP is what makes a car fast. When Accelerating the Tq a motor makes counts for way more then the HP. Then Gearing the Trans right to get the most out of the Tq. produced is super important. Automatics are not as power robbing as they once where. Todays autos are very efficient in putting power to the rear wheels. Given the numbers provided the GTO could be just as quick as the GT500 off the show room floor. Also keep in mind there are different versions of the GT500 the base GT500 is the one listed above. There are versions like the GT500KR and the Super Snake that come with much more power don't confuse them with the base model that most people have

Also most reviews i have read about the GT500 say that they doubt the numbers that Ford says the GT500 makes. The GT500 feel short of most expectations just as the GTO did when it first came out.

[borschtBomber[SS]]

The base GT500 will still beat a stock GTO...and 80 ft tq isn't enough? I'm just saying he is basing that his GTO is faster than a GT500 because of that little bit on I-95? I bet the guy realised what an idiot Miker is for doing 150 in I-95 and didn't push it.