Wesley Clarks comments about John McCain.

[Scott]

So did you guys hear all that stuff Clark was saying about McCain? Tell us what you think about it.

I also read the Clark almost started WWIII when he orderd a British Commander to fire on Russian troops. The British Commander refused to do so.

[Schwarz]

As soon as the Americans drop a nuclear bomb on Isreal and blame the Iranians its gonna be the start of WWIII.
I just hope the rest of the world wont buy into the American selfish goals, killing thousands of innocents for the middle east s oil.

Back on the topic at hand, im not even surprised he would order such a thing.
I mean on September 4 2006, the Airforce dropped a bomb on a Canadien battalion wounding 30 soldiers and killing only 1 ...

(Now if you think about it they actually friendly fired the wrong people... but they actually killed 1 out of the bunch...)
Discusting...

[coxmaster]

I just hope the rest of the world wont buy into the American selfish goals, killing thousands of innocents for the middle east s oil.

I dont remember having killed thousands of innocent people.. nor do i remember having taken any oil from anyone in the middle east. We liberated the people of Afghanistan and Iraq from the oppressive rule of terrorist organizations.

As for WWIII, that could be about to happen.. Israel has warned Iran that an attack is likely, and as a lifelong ally the US will be supporting Israel. If that happens $h!t could really hit the fan.

[Schwarz]

Now thats actually if you believe the theory that there are so many terrorist over there...
But to tell the truth US is not fighting so called terrorists but the people of the middle east.
I mean if they really were terrorists, it would be a very small amout of the people over there, but its been so many years now and the country is still fighting.

Hussein so called war crimes were done back in 1986 to 1989 he called for the extermination of every living thing--human or animal--in certain regions of the Kurdish north.
That was 20 years ago yet back then the americans didnt mind since hussein was still selling oil in USD.
As soon as Hussein in 2000 showed interest in selling oil in Euros we all know what happened.
Now Iran has weapons of mass dustruction when they want to sell oil in Euro to the chiness and the Russians...
Sadly the only one in this world to have launched an Nuclear weapon were the americans themselves.
Every countries have nuclear countries but why not talk about it on the news.


Now looking at the death toll of Iraqis civilian
The figure from ORB, a British polling agency that has conducted several surveys in Iraq, followed statements this week from the U.S. military defending itself against accusations it was trying to play down Iraqi deaths to make its strategy appear successful.
The number from many sources even american popular news paper elevate civilian casualties to over 600 000.
Imagine that in America ...
Thats not what I call rebuilding a country.
US bombed schools and hospitals, is that what we call strategic strikes ??

Get out of your daily medias and CNN propaganda.
Check news out of the country.
I always wanted to join the US forces when I was a kid.
I was close to enrolling when I lived in Nevada but what I know today discusts me.
The end justifies the means in America
I will not pledge allegiance to any country that kills innocent for their own personal selfish ambitions.

On september 11th 1991 father bush talked about a new world order.
What a conicidence...
You gotta a fool to not see the truth.

I tell you, dont just watch your own medias or you will never know whats going on outside.

[coxmaster]

LOL CNN... i havent watched that channel in years.

As for my view on the "terrorists" in Iraq. If they are such peaceful people why are they fighting against us?? If they were being peaceful they wouldnt attack every American they saw, weather that American was Armed or not. Further more.. if they werent terrorists why would they suicide bomb thousands of their OWN people?? Perhaps i just dont understand their view on the world, but last i checked most people dont blow up their own people.

Just a few other comments here:

US bombed schools and hospitals, is that what we call strategic strikes
Evidence please.. i dont accept unproven rants as valid points in a discussion.

The number from many sources even american popular news paper elevate civilian casualties to over 600 000

Again, need some evidence of this. Also, who was attributed with killing all these civilians?? There are hundreds of thousands that have been killed by Iraqis.. why should America take credit for that?

[Null]

If it were all that simple and we Americans wanted to take somebody's oil, we'd just cross the border and appropriate Canada's reserves. That would be much easier logistically.

And as far as Clark goes, I say let him spout off. He's not helping his party and, in fact, he might actually be helping McCain. Apparently Barack has said he explicitly rejected what Clark had said. Bringing forth John McCain's military service record and therefore his character can only emphesize Barack's lack thereof. Barack has misstepped many times these past months due to his associations and I don't see him stopping any time soon.

I'm registered to vote and I will vote but I won't be voting for Barack because I believe that he lacks the neccessary character and leadership skills that are required for the task at hand.

[Schwarz]

Why would they not attack US soldiers, they dont belong there.
THat would be like saying why didnt the US let nazy germany come into US.

Second of all they might be fighting together but what did the us do back in the days agaisn't the Britain ??
US is not minding its own business.

BAGHDAD - U.S. missiles hit a Red Crescent maternity hospital in Baghdad and other civilian buildings on Wednesday, killing several people and wounding at least 25, hospital sources and witnesses said.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0402-10.htm

US bombs ambulances and kids in Sadr City, winning more hearts and minds

http://theradicalmormon.wordpress.com/2008/05/03/us-bombs-ambulances-and-kids-in-sadr-city-winning-more-hearts-and-minds/

Civilian catastrophe as US bombs Afghan wedding
http://www.rawa.org/s-wedding.htm

Like i said get out of your media.

How about a more popular source from BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2909925.stm
Colonel Ron Johnson said civilian casualties had been inevitable because the Fedayeen militia and the Iraqi army had ignored the rules of war.

Oh yah blame the Iraqi army...right...
Some more proofs from BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3988433.stm
US strikes raze Falluja hospital

Terrorists hidding in the hospitals !!! yah !

You want more sources ??

As far as the Canadian thing we actually are third in how expensive our oil is.
Is it really our oil ...
Theres no way we could take it back anyways.
The american's pressure doest give much headroom to Canada to deal anyways.
US wanted to close importation of canadian goods if we didnt follow up to war.
Our oil is already owned by US companies anyways heh...
And declaring a war on Canada wouldnt look good worldwide anyways...

[coxmaster]

Another comment about your sources.. "theradicalmormon" is not a credible source. A blog is never reliable for world media, nor is it appropriate in a debate.

Your first souce "Witnesses Say U.S. Bombs Hit Iraqi Hospital " also makes very little impact. There were also many witnesses that said the US government blew up the levees in New Orleans, but there is again no proof. I have no doubt that we have hit civilians, or innocent buildings and people, but that is a fact of war.

As for the killing of thousands of innocent people, i never blamed the Iraqi Army, i blamed the militant islamic radicals.

Why would they not attack US soldiers, they dont belong there
That makes absolutely no sense.. If i am a law abiding citizen, why should i be bothered by some Americans in my town? They arent in my home and they arent bothering me.. so i should obviously blow up the soldiers as well as 100 of my neighbors.. that sounds like a great idea.

The point is, there are MILITANT TERRORISTS within Iraq which are attacking and killing whatever they can, and then there are the innocent Iraqis who welcome the American liberators. Those who attack, are attacked.. Those who welcome us we leave alone to live in peace while we save their towns and country.

[AJ.]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jEOkxRLzBf0

[coxmaster]

I love that song..

It always seems to make me sad :( but its very calming too

[Schwarz]

2 sources from BBC I can probably find a lot more I searched for 2 minutes.

To your other point.
Would america let the Iranian army come into US.
US is not god, its like if I said well why not let the Iranian army come into the US and kill every citizen that opose their way of thinking calling them terrorists...
Its like if I came to your home and say well im here but dont mind me because if you do ill call you a terrorist and kill you, its for your own good...
US is not welcomed in the middle east like many think.
Why do you think there are so many deaths of US soldiers.
Its not US army vs terrorist is basically US overtaking the middle east without an army but is still trying to defend its country.
Suicide bombing doesnt really mean that you are a terrorist.
It means that you are willing to sacrifice your own life for what you think is right.
If there are SO MANY people willing to sacrafice their bodies to protect what they think is right (Even though we all have our religion and convictions...to each his own...)
Stop believing that US is fighting terrorist, they are fighting Iraqis not happy that their country is being overtaken by another one.

Like I said, what if I came to your house man, and just say well dont mind me, your a law abiding citizen so its all good, ill do what I want, destroy your kitchen but its for your own good buddy all for your own good.
If you dont mind ill buy your food with my super currency called the SchwarzyDollars, its not worth your currency but you know what, if you sell it in yours then ill blow you up and say you had a nuclear bomb in your bathroom...

[Null]

The BBC served a purpose, but that was more than sixty years ago.

[Schwarz]

Oh yah now that the channel doesnt say what you want to hear then you pull a comment like that.
Thats how you americans are.
Whatever is outside your country is retarded or not worth anything.
You guys aint gods.
Look outside if your butt buddy, not only your opinion is worth something.
Who care if they were worth something or the channel sucks, the fact of the matter is that the US has bombed an hospital, and is being reported by a news channel...

[coxmaster]

Wow.. now were resorting to name calling, and racism. You just called ALL Americans idiots who dont give a damn.

Well done fine sir.

Also, i didnt not say suicide bombing is an act of terrorism. But when the target (according to you) is the American troops then why do a majority of the attacks kill ONLY, yes ONLY Iraqis?? If they were targeting us dont you think they would, oh.. i dunno.. blow themselves up when we were around??

[AJ.]

I have a feeling that this thread will end up with banned members if you guys don't stop. Please guys, discuss things in a mature and civil manner or don't discuss at all. Even though you may disagree about certain topics, there's no reason for things to get out of hand. We are all adults, let's act like some.

[coxmaster]

Heh, thanks for the reminder AJ. :grin: :keepfolding:

[Null]

I wish some folks around here were as passionate with their disgust for homicide bombers or for those who strap IED's on the mentally challenged before blowing them up by remote control as they are with Americans and American policy in general. Now that would be refreshing.

But anyways, back to Clark. He's not helping Barack and I see that as a good thing. Hell, Barack ain't helping Barack. And that's a good thing too. Hopefully, the words and deeds of Barack and his associates will lead the American public to a sensible choice in November when it comes to the leadership of this country.

Dare I say it?

Vote McCain '08 - Sure he's old. But so was Methuselah!

[The preceding comments do not represent the views of the management or the owners of this website. They represent the views of a small minority of persons (mainly me) who have been brainwashed by the American way of life. "Yum, apple pie. Baseball. Oil."]

[coxmaster]

Vote McCain '08 - Sure he's old. But so was Methuselah!

Dunno if you guys watch SNL.. but this emphasizes that point very well. And its hilarious lol

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tB8iVgviw9w

[theradicalmormon]

Coxmaster,
The sources quoted above are very credible if you look at the reference links. In "theradicalmormon's" post linked to above, if you actually read the post, there is extensive quotes from the New York Times and ABC News. Please don't brush off all bloggers with a broad stroke of generalization like that. There are quite a few out there that actually post good information backed to the hilt with referenced sources.

[srpeters18]

How about this? Why not actually ask someone who's been there? Somebody who doesn't have their own agenda. Somebody that has had close friends killed, who has seen Iraqi's killed. How about a Forward Observer that knows exactly what our Rules of Engagement say and exactly what it takes to get clearance to drop bombs from aircraft or shoot artillery? Why are we all so busy quoting ABC, CNN, BBC, random blogs and so on? I have spent 27 months in Iraq. It is not like what you see on the news. Most of the civilian deaths in Iraq are not caused by US servicemembers. We just can't compete with people blowing themselves up in dump trucks in a wedding procession, even if we wanted to. I walked the streets in Diyala province almost every day for six months last year, google Diyala province from Mar 07 to Sep 07 if you think there was just nothing going on there.

Did you know that most women in Iraq never wore the full veil until a couple of years ago, when terrorist groups put the word out that they would kill any female not wearing it, and then made good on the threat?

How come none of the news agencies or bloggers have covered any of the humanitarian missions we've done in Iraq? How many times have soldiers risked their lives in Iraq to deliver food? None of you know.

And Schwarz, for you to say something like you considered serving but would never do so now? Its because you know zero about our military and what we really do.

So everybody remember, you can't believe everything you read, even from the internet. Don't take my word for it. Talk to someone that's been there. Somebody that doesn't have their own agenda, somebody that's not trying to sell a newspaper or an advertising spot.

[Scott]

This seems to of really gotten off TOPIC!! I aksed about what Clark said about McCain. Back on topic now please.

[Enigmachine]

When the US invaded Iraq it wasn't known for its islamic terrorists. It was in fact one of the 'successes' of the middle east - one of the biggest GNP growths in the areas, the highest litteracy rates, some of the best Universities around, an increasing immigration of intellectuals and other elites that wanted to stay away from Israel's problems. Ever noticed the number of satellite antennas in some of the older pictures of Bagdad? Iraqis weren't completely ignorant of the world, you know.

Yes, Hussein was a despot (put in power thanks to his ties to a religious party) and yes the people of Iraq wanted to be free of the constant delations, torture and dangers from Hussein's army, but it would probably have happened over time anyway. The people would have suffered hardships, but a lot less would have died. And the country would have been left healthier in the end.

Now thanks to the USA declaring war, invading and more or less failing at conquest (as they often do - remember how they failed to invade Canada twice? :) unilaterally against the wishes of the rest of the world, hundreds of thousands of people (who have seen many more US soldiers than terrorists in their lifetime) are dead and the country is going to rot for a hundred years.

It's not that nothing should have been done - it's what HAS been done that is wrong. Believing wrongly that Iraq attacked first doesn't give you or anyone the right to invade... just the excuse.

[borschtBomber[SS]]

I'll say this about Iraq...yes it was wrong for us to go in there in the first place..but you all know damn well we are in a no win situation. If we cut ties and ran now we would get just as much crap from the world as we are now for continuing on. I really hope that McCain wins and brings a level head to the office....because I really don't think Obama is a good fit, he's too much a socialist IMO.

[AJ.]

When the US invaded Iraq it wasn't known for its islamic terrorists.

Please, don't involve the word Islam with terrorism. I find it quite offensive. Islam and terrorism don't mix. If you terrorize people then you're not a Muslim.

It's like me going around calling terrorists with a Christian background "Christian terrorists." If they were really following their religion they wouldn't do such acts. Hence, the name is unfitting. ;-)

[Null]

I'm against the cut-and-run strategy. Besides, I want to help the anti-war protesters and liberals from dealing with the deep pain and sorrow they would feel from after having left countless numbers to die due to a destabilized area caused by a withdraw.

The 60's/70's anti-war protesters sure weren't broken up though after the American forces withdrew from Southeast Asia (Vietnam). I guess maybe they thought that the Pol Pot regime was full of peace, love, and understanding. Yeah, right. That death toll was in the millions.

[srpeters18]

Back on topic here:

Clark accuses McCain and fellow Republicans of turning the threat of terrorism into “a rallying cry for military adventurism.”

This is the part that really bugs me. Clark and all his little democratic friends love to declare Republicans the worst possible thing for our country. Why does everybody seem to forget that we were attacked? Terrorism is a very real threat, its been proven. Everyday there are terrorist attempts that are intercepted and dealt with, this is not a problem that is going away, no matter how "nice" we are to the rest of the world.

Clark says the greatest thing about America isn't our military might, its our economy and our values. Then why are he and his fellow democrats trying to destroy both of those? More social programs and higher spending, along with higher taxes have never been a recipe for a stronger economy. And values? Which party is it that is struggling to re-align the values this country has held for 200 years? Which party is it that keeps coming back to gay marriage, even though the people (even in California!) keep saying "no, that doesn't line up with our values"?

So yeah, Clark can bite me. He USED to be a General, now he just has no idea what he's talking about. Like I stated previously, its easy to pass judgment when you only see one side of an argument.

[Null]

Please, don't involve the word Islam with terrorism. I find it quite offensive. Islam and terrorism don't mix. If you terrorize people then you're not a Muslim.

I'm sorry that the term offends you but what then do you call someone who calls themselves a Muslim and terrorizes the innocent? I'd like to know. They don't do these despicable acts because they read about it on a box of cereal. They do it for faith.

Just as the Christians did during the crusades. Not all Christains participated or approved, but they were what they were, crusades led by Christians. It's the same with Islamic Terrorist. They are Islamic, and they terrorize. And just like the Christian Crusaders of yore, not all Muslims participate or approve, yet still, their actions are based on their faith.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

[Scott]

And not all Irish Prodestants where in the IRA.

[AJ.]

I'm sorry that the term offends you but what then do you call someone who calls themselves a Muslim and terrorizes the innocent? I'd like to know. They don't do these despicable acts because they read about it on a box of cereal. They do it for faith.

Just as the Christians did during the crusades. Not all Christains participated or approved, but they were what they were, crusades led by Christians. It's the same with Islamic Terrorist. They are Islamic, and they terrorize. And just like the Christian Crusaders of yore, not all Muslims participate or approve, yet still, their actions are based on their faith.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

That's the problem. Read the Quran and you'll know what Islam is about. Islam is a religion of peace and equality; not violence. I would know, I'm a Muslim. We only have one book so I know I'm reading the right one. ;-)

The people that do these acts are not Muslim and do by any means depict what Islam teaches.

I hope you understand what I'm saying.

[Null]

AJ, I do understand.

I understand that you do not approve of them and that you do not consider them to be followers of Islam, but they believe themselves to be Muslims and call themselvse as such. They substitute freedom fighter or martyr for terrorist and make videos of their daring deeds.

Scott made a good point. Not all Irish Prodestants were in the IRA. Nor were all the peoples of the Apache Nation in agreement with the actions of the Apache chief Geronimo, yet he was still called a Renegade Apache. It's what people do. They classify things. They give names to things. They call each other names.

[AJ.]

The problem is that people cannot differentiate between the two. Whenever they hear Islam they automatically think "terrorist." It's the lack of education and just outright ignorant nature people that causes problems in our society.

[Scott]

Ok this is really going off topic, can we get it back on topic or do I need to close the thread?:offtopic::offtopic:

[AJ.]

When you're talking about politics usually allot of emotions get involved and that tends to get things off-topic in one way or the other. But I wouldn't see the need in this particular case to close the thread. We're talking in a civil and respectful manner to eachother.

Anyway, as you wish. Back on-topic everybody. :)

[borschtBomber[SS]]

BOT...Clark is a doofus :)

[Sadasius]

So did you guys hear all that stuff Clark was saying about McCain? Tell us what you think about it.

I also read the Clark almost started WWIII when he orderd a British Commander to fire on Russian troops. The British Commander refused to do so.

Well that's politics. Each will open the others dirty laundry for the world to see. I like the South Park depiction the best about voting in politics about voting being important despite only having the choice between a douche and a turd sandwich most of the time. Look at Arnold's campaign for governor of California. They tried to depict him of raping girls etc. Nice.....Power has a very strong allure for some people who are of the most ultimate in control freaks in our society. Most politicians do mean well and actually do think they are doing the right thing. Most of the time they are very good people. Sure they think they are entitled to your hard earned money and sure they think they are entitled to say how you have to live or should live. Just have to remember the reason of their position and lifestyle at the time and perhaps then you would understand their perception on things and understand the primitive hold power has over them and how it has changed them. Just think of Golem in the LOTR with the ring of power. How it corrupted him over such a time and how good he was. It is a sad tale indeed but one that has the exact same measure over our politicians. They go in with the best of intentions and along the way despite how good of people they are they WILL get corrupted in one way or another. It is the burden of power. I used to work out with Ralph Goodale who was the x-financial minister of Canada. He is a pretty good friend of mine and he is pretty much leading the way for the Liberal party. But even in him I have noticed a change over time. He would make comments about things in which he thought he was entitled to especially for the work he has done etc. He is a good man but sometimes he just forgets the reason why he went into politics in the first place.....'For the People!'. After awhile when the same people he thought he was doing good things for started to turn against his policies and started protesting....well let just say it makes a dividing wedge and the past of doing politics for the people becomes a blurred line. It is a sad tale that I have seen personally over and over again with very good people.

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely!"

[Null]

Apparently Clark's continuing mission to correct the record (he thinks that the media took his comments out of context) is overshadowing Barack's speeches this week on patriotism and faith. Barack's camp had hoped that those speeches would be major markers in the presidential race for the next few months.

Now Barack has to hear about McCain's military service resume which is something that he had hoped to avoid. And in the process, Clark is doing no favors to Barack or himself. His chances of a Democratic Party VP nomination appear to be dwindling rapidly. That's some strategic judgement he's exercizing, by golly.

[Schwarz]

Im quite surprised and happy to see someone from theradicalmormon show up here.
The blog clearly points to known sources such as the new york post yet just by seeing the name theradicalmormon he probably never even bothered to read the whole thing...
Anyways you know my view on the whole situation and this has gotten out of hands.
But facts are facts, you do what you want with the rest.
Anyways its a little hard to convince a country that their gouvernement are tyrants...
But like I said, look outside, open your mind and check out news outside of your own country.
Check out what other people think and not only yourself.
Like me or not as far as politics go, this is how I think.
No one has the right to go over to your home and say well dont mind me if im here but if you dont cooperate ill call you a terrorist and kill you.
This is a hardware forum so ill stop here, anyways I dont wish to be banned from here.

[Enigmachine]

Please, don't involve the word Islam with terrorism. I find it quite offensive. Islam and terrorism don't mix. If you terrorize people then you're not a Muslim.

It's like me going around calling terrorists with a Christian background "Christian terrorists." If they were really following their religion they wouldn't do such acts. Hence, the name is unfitting. ;-)

Sorry, I really didn't mean to make it sound that way. By 'islamic terrorism' I meant desperate people who are manipulated into terrorism by religious means, in this case Islam. I suppose my point was that Islam has become tied with terrorism in people's mind, so much so that even I did it accidentaly.

I've visited more mosques than my feet wanted to. :) So I agree with you on Islam; it has many positive values such as peace and self-improvement. I didn't mean any slights at all, sorry if it sounded that way.

[AJ.]

Sorry, I really didn't mean to make it sound that way. By 'islamic terrorism' I meant desperate people who are manipulated into terrorism by religious means, in this case Islam. I suppose my point was that Islam has become tied with terrorism in people's mind, so much so that even I did it accidentaly.

I've visited more mosques than my feet wanted to. :) So I agree with you on Islam; it has many positive values such as peace and self-improvement. I didn't mean any slights at all, sorry if it sounded that way.

That's no problem man. Apology accepted. ;-)