NVIDIA or ATI?

[zachig]

Are you NVIDIA or ATI fan? Let us know.

I personally like NVIDIA more. I used to be an ATI fan, but since I've upgraded my ATI Radeon 9600Pro to a NVIDIA 6600GT, I became NVIDIA fan. I think that NVIDIA are currently leading the market with their latest 7800GTX 512MB, altough ATI X1800XT looks promising as well.

[liqnit]

Nvidia
their hardware is better configured then ATI and the Nforce line goes great with gForce

[pym]

Nvidia indeed.
Besides the fact its architecture and design are better,
Nvidia is innovative and gives us interesting solutions , brought to us the SLI for example... (ATI followed with CrossFire)
Take a look here for SLI results:
http://www.bjorn3d.com/theforum/viewtopic.php?t=60047

[ProMemoreX]

I like both of them equally but NVIDIA tends to get a little pricy when it just came out. NVIDIA a a great choice for overclocking and making worth your money though.

[Radiums]

I would choose Nvidia because it has very nice graphics

[Gray]

Lol the lone voice......

I am Canadian, I like the fact that they are 2, and I have always owned ATI. Always bought the top end when I did.

Realy it's a crap shoot as to wich one is right for you.
What games you play can decide for you quite easaly.
I'm not going to waffle but they both make great stuff.
I personally lean to ATI; but Price, Availability and the specificality of application are IMO the only true deciders of what card to buy.

Remember that in 3.5 years from now the bast card there is currently will be the "It used to be decent card" in your second mechine because you won't be able to give it away.

[tomato]

Although NVidia has won this round, I have to vote ATI to support my fellow Canadians! ATI will be back better than ever come the next hardware cycle, you just wait :wink: :)

Seriously though, like Gray posted, you should purchase the video card that best suits your gaming needs... IE: your preference of Quake or Half-Life engine based games should help determine your video card, as each graphics chip is better optimized for one of those engines. :wink:

[3D_Mind]

I have been an ATI sorta guy all my life (gaming life, anyway).

It actually started on an Nvidia TNT2 16MB (or was it 32MB?) card in my mom's system. My computer started out on an ATI Radeon 7200 32MB and was upgraded to my current ATI Radeon 9800np. My borther upgraded my Mom's computer with an ATI Radeon 9100 128MB card and now my Dad's system is using my old Radeon 7200 (he does game, but only the Windows games that come with XP! :lol: )

So Nvidia has been out of the picture for quite some time, maybe I need to defect to the other side and test the waters?

[Schwarz]

Well I have ALWAYS used ATI cards so I would vote for ATI.
But XFX is sending me a nvidia card so i guess i'll be able to compare...

[digitalwanderer]

nVidia or ATi? Hell, that's an easy one....

























....yes. http://mastabeta.com/forum/images/smilies/yep.gif

Right now my systems are even. 2 of each and I have no complaints with any of the cards. :)

[PUTALE]

based on current system, I think nvidia is a better chioice for the performance/price ratio.
The ATI is nice, specially the 1900, it packed with lots of feature and stuff, but it's too expensive and that I think that ATI's dual card is not as mature as nvida.

[Bio-Hazard]

If I were to buy the top single solution today, it would have to be ATI X1900XTX, it's the best performing soluton out there right now. It may change when the 7900 hit the market, but that will have to wait till they come out.
For me I would never get a dual card solution, I have or see no reason for the extra cost.
I've used cards from both firms over the years and I've go no complaints with either of them.
When I buy, I get the one offering the best performance for my money and right now the 7800GTX 512 are priced way to high and the 1900XTX beats it anyway.

[Frank Marino]

I'm with Nvidia right now only because of SLI, although last week I noticed ATI had some new feature that looked suspiciously like SLI, does anyone know if they have something in the works?

If so, although I can guess at the answer, will SLI-ready MB's be able to do ATI's dual card system?

[Null]

Deja Vu

http://www.bjorn3d.com/theforum/viewtopic.php?t=61267&highlight=

Currently, I'm an SLIboy wannabe.

Hell, that ain't so bad.

There are worse things.

[Bio-Hazard]

I'm with Nvidia right now only because of SLI, although last week I noticed ATI had some new feature that looked suspiciously like SLI, does anyone know if they have something in the works?

If so, although I can guess at the answer, will SLI-ready MB's be able to do ATI's dual card system?

If you're talking about ATI's CrossFire, that is a dual card setup, but it has to be with a ATI CrossFire MoBo just like Nvidia has to be a special SLI MoBo.
Right now, the X1900XT CrossFire is the fastest thing out there, but upgrading to it will cause you to buy a new MoBo to use it.......... :shock:

[pc_man_iac]

I too am Canadian but I hate ATI merely because I have never had a bad experience with Nvidia but have had several problems with ATI. Just because your canadian doesnt meen you have to buy ATI, should Americans drink carbonatedyellowwater(american beer) because it is american or should they drink real beer with ALCOHOL. Or drive bad broken cars of the Big 3 nooo you buy quality not your country man jeezus

[Fantasma]

I have not voted because I don´t prefer one over another. Some time ago, I would have chosen ATI (when there were 9xxx and geforce fx 5xxx), but now, it´s difficult to decide, the performance is similar, the only thing that can you make up your mind are the features, that is to say, if you want better video quality, buy ATI x1xxx, if SM 3.0 and HDR is a must for you, choose Nvidia 6xxx and 7xxx over ATI x8xx, etc...
It depends on your needs, although, right now, if you want the fastest card out there, buy a x1900XTX.

About the SLI-crossfire thing, I think it´s better Crossfire, it has different rendering modes and it can be run in any game with an improvement in fps, however SLI only is supported in games recognised by the Nvidia driver.

[Frank Marino]

If you're talking about ATI's CrossFire, that is a dual card setup, but it has to be with a ATI CrossFire MoBo just like Nvidia has to be a special SLI MoBo.
Right now, the X1900XT CrossFire is the fastest thing out there, but upgrading to it will cause you to buy a new MoBo to use it.......... :shock:

Yeah, I figured as much. Of course, if you can afford two of those things, then a new motherboard isn't likely to break the bank.

Do the two ATI cards have to be indentical, like the Nvidias have to be in SLI?

[pc_man_iac]

no they can be any to crossfire supported cards, but whay anyone would do that is retarded because the faster one drops down to the lower speed one so u effectively haev 2 of the slower cards so why not just buy 2 of that card?????

[coldgin]

went from 3dfx to nVidia. haven't tried ATI yet, even though from Canada. one reason is until now, they haven't supported SM3, but I suppose if they price is right, and it's more powerful than the nVidia I'm hoping to get, I might switch. Also heard alot of problems with the drivers and opengl wasn't up to snuff.

[Frank Marino]

no they can be any to crossfire supported cards, but whay anyone would do that is retarded because the faster one drops down to the lower speed one so u effectively haev 2 of the slower cards so why not just buy 2 of that card?????

Basically, it would let you upgrade in increments. For example, I have a 6600GT in my first slot. I don't want to go out and buy another 6600 to make it SLI, because they'll be obsolete soon (if they already aren't). On the other hand, I can't justify buying two 6800's or 7800's at the same time, or buying one and just throwing away my current card. If you could mix and match, then I could buy the 6800 now, and have it act like a 6600 until I can justify another 6800 purchase.

I'm not an experty by any stretch, but I had assumed that two 256mb 6600's would be more powerful, in general, than one 256mb6800. Is that incorrect?

[HoldemHi20]

Nvidia because they have better drivers.

[Bio-Hazard]

Personally I don't like the drivers much from Nvidia, it's like everything else out on the market these days, everyone has their own likes and dislikes, and what works well for one person might not for another.

[XJnine]

I like whichever one is best at the time I'm buying a new video card. Both companies have made great cards and both have made duds.

I believe currently Nvidia has an edge with the cards but that could easily change. It's easy to say the x1900 series could have an edge over what Nvdida is offering but that's because it's a brand new GPU. When Nvidia releases their updated chip we'll see how they compare. I also think SLI from Nvidia has an edge over Crossfire. It's more mature and better implemented, not to say ATI can't overtake them though.

[Cleeve]

Owned 'em both, loved 'em both. Both companies have leading products in different price segments... 6600, X800 GTO, 6800 GS, 7800 GT, X1900 AIW

As far as gaming, I have no complaints for either. The only distinction I make is professional work, where the Geforce drivers are still notably better (3dsMax, etc.)

But for gaming, my 9700 PRO was just as amazing in it's time as my 6800 ultra was. I'll vote for Ati because the X1900 is top dog right now and they deserve props, but really the best card depends more on how much money you have to spend that which brand you prefer.

[BlackStar]

As has been stated, it all depends on what games you're playing and if they have been developed for one card or another. Some look and play better with ATI, others with Nvidia.

I have Nvidia right now, but I don't dislike ATI.

[Gray]

Having to buy propriatary motherboards sucks!
The whole idea of having a standerd like AGP is to make it cheaper to produce and and all systems compatable.

What if Seagate and Fujitsu decide to make different hard drive interfaces. and different types of ram, like happened with Rambus and DDR.

I understand that the slot is the same but the south bridge must have to be different to controll the cards. (can anyone clairify that for me?)

It would be nice, if like the original Scan Line Interleave, (VOOdoo2 SLI) you could put the boards in any system that had 2 free PCI slots. That would be much better.

[pym]

Although NVidia has won this round, I have to vote ATI to support my fellow Canadians! ATI will be back better than ever come the next hardware cycle, you just wait :wink: :)


Looks like winning a battle does not mean the war is over... ;)
Results point at ATI for the moment.

[pc_man_iac]

Hey isn't ATI no longer Canadian and its headquarters are simply located in Canada???

[Kangg]

Nvidia all the way !


Simple reason, their cards just work and play any game I throw at em.
While, admittedly ATI's cards have gotten better than they used to be they still have too many driver issues.

[Cleeve]

While, admittedly ATI's cards have gotten better than they used to be they still have too many driver issues.

Name one.

For every Ati driver issue you lok up, I can look one up for Nvidia.

Seriously, this is all old FUD. Do you even have an Ati card? How would you know what driver issues there are?

I'm running both types of cards on a home network, I network pretty much every new game demo that's released on both of 'em, and I can't think of an Nvidia or Ati driver bug that's occured in recent memory.

[alx737]

I haven't used any Ati video cards at all, but i think that Nvidia is and will be the best. Nvidia as better high-end video cards and better bang-for-buck cards as well.

[Coolest-Tech]

NVIDIA is king. I once had a Diamond Radeon 9200SE, and it was always crashing, and overheating.

[Bio-Hazard]

NVIDIA is king. I once had a Diamond Radeon 9200SE, and it was always crashing, and overheating.

All depends on who you talk to I guess................ :shock:
As for ATI crashing all the time, never had that problem myself and have had more than a few ATI cards over the past 20 years.............. :wink: But then again I never had that problem with any brand video card except for when I caused it myself.

[Gray]

I chose ATI but I have no problem owning either, I have a rebuttle for every comment made by everyone on this topic so far. (I actually own 1 of both)...

As I said before, Price, Availability, and timing are key to what you end up buying.

Month to month the top card changes just as it does, game to game, once you figure out witch card is faster they have been replaced and the new driver's don't suppport your card anymore; thats the way it goes.

Good luck all in convincing each other to buy "your brand". lol.

I am glad we have em both.
(I think I also said before, a 3rd player in the mix would be even better!)

[z3r0C00L]

Although NVidia has won this round, I have to vote ATI to support my fellow Canadians! ATI will be back better than ever come the next hardware cycle, you just wait :wink: :)

Seriously though, like Gray posted, you should purchase the video card that best suits your gaming needs... IE: your preference of Quake or Half-Life engine based games should help determine your video card, as each graphics chip is better optimized for one of those engines. :wink:

And you were right..

ATi... but why ATi?

They innovate. People here claim nVIDIA brought SLI and ATi followed suit. That's complete bullox. 3Dfx brought SLI, then ATi brought AFR (Alternate Frame Rendering) all nVIDIA did was combine the two. (see ATi Rage Fury MAXX and 3Dfx Voodoo 2,4,5).

Last I heard ATi are the first ones to announce new ideas (Like Physics in a VPU was announced a year ago by ATi, AviVO, Rotated Grid Multisampling that is Gamma Corrected). There are far more innovations like the first true Cinematic effects Capable card (Radeon 9700 Pro) to Hydravision. They brought us Adaptive AF, Adaptive AA not to mention VGA... yes ATi created VGA.. ;)

There are far more achievements... nVIDIA has usually re-branded existing technologies or waited a generation to include things ATi has had for a Generation of two.

About drivers... ATi make the most stable Windows environment driver says Microsoft (maker's of Windows). ATi also have the widest featureset.

And then there's the DAC's. ATi's 2D sharpness is only rivalled by Matrox. ATi's cards are geared towards EVERYTHING... not just gamer's. They were the first to bring us accelerated DVD compensation and now accelerated HDTV acceleration... the first to bring us de-interlacing, BOB, WEAVE, adaptive etc. They pretty much invented the game.

They've also been around longer then nVIDIA or any other VGA competitor.. which is to be expected since they were one of the companies that invented the game.

So why buy nVIDIA? Well if you're a fanboy, flag waver type person or like a company that lies to it's consumers.. go ahead.

x1900 > 7900... of course the x1900 is louder, but in today's rig's people's CPU fans are louder and if they watercool there rigs they likely watercool the VPU's too.

That's it.. there's no BUT's... only fanboyism has kept nVIDIA doing so well... they're better at marketing there products.. that's it.

[z3r0C00L]

NVIDIA is king. I once had a Diamond Radeon 9200SE, and it was always crashing, and overheating.

Now that's hilarious.. somehow I don't believe you've ever owned an ATi card.. I dunno.. might be the username, the sig or the nVIDIA folding team.. hmmmm ;)

Now I say the best way to do this is a dual...

Let's choose a VERY detailed scene in a game... and at the default LCD resolution of 1280x1024 post a screenie of that scene with as much eye candy as you can enable...

Let's see who's screenshot looks the best..

[pc_man_iac]

yeah but games are bias open gl, and direct x, so until we get a neutral party game that just pwns, you know it doesnt matter it all depends on what games you play in all reality, SO argue as you will both are very good card makers clearly because they both make millions upon millions a year, and have both found very loyal customers so yeah to each his own

[Gordo]

I'm an nVidia fanboy, ever since my first STB Velocity 128 (Riva chip). I like the competition between nVidia and ATI - the innovations keep on coming, which is a win for everybody, especially the consumers.

Full disclosure: I own nVidia stock and I've made a bundle. Now why haven't I upgraded from my old Ti4200 yet? :roll:

[Bio-Hazard]

Heck, if you own stock, you should be running the top of the line cards............... :wink:

[Coolest-Tech]

[quote=tomato]
About drivers... ATi make the most stable Windows environment driver says Microsoft (maker's of Windows). ATi also have the widest featureset.


Then why when I tried to install the X64 pro drivers for my http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=8596943 Radeon 9200SE, I got a thonk.exe (or somthink like that) error?

And about the features, NVIDIA had SM3 and HDR 1 1/2 year before ATi. :lol: :wink:

[Bio-Hazard]

[quote=tomato]
About drivers... ATi make the most stable Windows environment driver says Microsoft (maker's of Windows). ATi also have the widest featureset.


Then why when I tried to install the X64 pro drivers for my http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=8596943 Radeon 9200SE, I got a thonk.exe (or somthink like that) error?

:

Sounds like you didn't uninstall the old drivers correctly............ :shock:

[z3r0C00L]

[quote=tomato]
About drivers... ATi make the most stable Windows environment driver says Microsoft (maker's of Windows). ATi also have the widest featureset.


Then why when I tried to install the X64 pro drivers for my http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=8596943 Radeon 9200SE, I got a thonk.exe (or somthink like that) error?

And about the features, NVIDIA had SM3 and HDR 1 1/2 year before ATi. :lol: :wink:

nVIDIA had SM3 before ATi.. yes.. but they didn't have true HDR and still don't. There HDR is primitive and lacks the ability to be used in conjunction with the most widely used feature.. FSAA.

On the other hand ATi brought a card (9700 Pro) that was 3 years ahead of it's time.. hell it's architecture was still used up until the x850 series... not bad if you ask me.

[Gray]

Instead of trying to say who is better we should all be complaining that we have to buy a "spacific" mobo to use with either ATI, or Nvidia.

You should be able to plug "Crossfire" or "SLI" into any motherboard. Just like when you bought a Voodoo chipset in years gone by.

I want the Option to change my mind and use both. I think that is stupid that you have to buy a motherboard based soly on what brand of card you are going to use.:evil:
*******'s.

[Coolest-Tech]

[quote=tomato]
About drivers... ATi make the most stable Windows environment driver says Microsoft (maker's of Windows). ATi also have the widest featureset.


Then why when I tried to install the X64 pro drivers for my http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=8596943 Radeon 9200SE, I got a thonk.exe (or somthink like that) error?

:

Sounds like you didn't uninstall the old drivers correctly............ :shock:

That was a fresh installation.

And about HDR, the GeForce 7900GTX allows HDR and AA.

[z3r0C00L]

[quote=tomato]
About drivers... ATi make the most stable Windows environment driver says Microsoft (maker's of Windows). ATi also have the widest featureset.


Then why when I tried to install the X64 pro drivers for my http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=8596943 Radeon 9200SE, I got a thonk.exe (or somthink like that) error?

:

Sounds like you didn't uninstall the old drivers correctly............ :shock:

That was a fresh installation.

And about HDR, the GeForce 7900GTX allows HDR and AA.

I think you're mistaken.. the 7900GTX does not allow HDR with AA. It allows Bloom with AA. Half Life 2 does not use FP16 HDR.. it uses Bloom (Integer HDR). It's a fake form of HDR that does not allow all of the features of HDR. .. a hack if you will.

Don;t believe me? Run Far Cry with HDR and try enabling FSAA... won't work on the 7900GTX.. but it will on the x1900.. ;)

Oh and can you post a screenshot here of your error with the 9200 driver? We'd love to see it.. ;)

[Coolest-Tech]

[quote=tomato]
About drivers... ATi make the most stable Windows environment driver says Microsoft (maker's of Windows). ATi also have the widest featureset.


Then why when I tried to install the X64 pro drivers for my http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=8596943 Radeon 9200SE, I got a thonk.exe (or somthink like that) error?

:

Sounds like you didn't uninstall the old drivers correctly............ :shock:

That was a fresh installation.

And about HDR, the GeForce 7900GTX allows HDR and AA.

I think you're mistaken.. the 7900GTX does not allow HDR with AA. It allows Bloom with AA. Half Life 2 does not use FP16 HDR.. it uses Bloom (Integer HDR). It's a fake form of HDR that does not allow all of the features of HDR. .. a hack if you will.

Don;t believe me? Run Far Cry with HDR and try enabling FSAA... won't work on the 7900GTX.. but it will on the x1900.. ;)



This is what GDR look's like on a Radeon X1X00

http://www.hardocp.com/images/articles/1131258418eoogSY4X66_5_5_l.jpg

http://www.hardocp.com/images/articles/1131258418eoogSY4X66_5_6_l.jpg

[Bio-Hazard]

I think it's time you all put this stuff to bed, both GPU types have their pluses and minuses. It's getting to the point where's you're beating a horse to death, But these types of threads always end up that way.

[z3r0C00L]

Lol.. no that's what HDR looked like in November of 2005 when the x1800 was released.. there was a bug in the game with ATi's HDR.

Bloom effect now works properly in HDR mode on ATI X1000 series boards (no more pixelization).
When toggling HDR mode while using FSAA, cfunc 'gfxRestart()' is now required.

http://www.croteam.com/ <---- Serious Sam II Patch v2.066 fixed that issue.

The game now looks MUCH MUCH better on Ati's x1K hardware due to HDR + AA being possible.. :)

[mousiness]

ofcourse nvidia 10 BIZILLION times more stable and their sli is simply amaizing compared to crossfire

[Bio-Hazard]

Either brand is plenty stable if you install things the way you are supposed to. Both ATi and Nvidia have their good and bad points, it's all in what the end user is looking for in a feature set that determins what brand they should get.
And there is the fan boy types that will stick by their favorite brand through thick or thin regardles of the performance.

[Kougar]

Nvidia indeed.
Besides the fact its architecture and design are better,
Nvidia is innovative and gives us interesting solutions , brought to us the SLI for example... (ATI followed with CrossFire)
Take a look here for SLI results:
http://www.bjorn3d.com/theforum/viewtopic.php?t=60047

I would disagree, and here is why I voted for ATI.

Nvidia lacks the physical hardware in all their card designs for the user to enable both HDR effects WITH AntiAliasing enabled. You can get one or the other but not both, as opposed to ATI who has the necessary hardware to run both at once for maximum eye-candy.

Half Life 2's HDR effects are the only exception to the above as they do not use the floating point method used in other games to create the HDR effects. FarCry, Oblivion and other games with HDR fall prey to this issue.

What is the point of buying an awesome card like the 7900GT when it cannot be used for it's full potential? ATI won that round...

[Coolest-Tech]

I would disagree, and here is why I voted for ATI.

Nvidia lacks the physical hardware in all their card designs for the user to enable both HDR effects WITH AntiAliasing enabled. You can get one or the other but not both, as opposed to ATI who has the necessary hardware to run both at once for maximum eye-candy.

Half Life 2's HDR effects are the only exception to the above as they do not use the floating point method used in other games to create the HDR effects. FarCry, Oblivion and other games with HDR fall prey to this issue.

What is the point of buying an awesome card like the 7900GT when it cannot be used for it's full potential? ATI won that round...
But, then again, do we really need HDR? All it realy does is make the bright things look really bright, asnd the dark things really dark. I don't see a need for HDR. Also, it seams that the problems with ATi's cards are with the SE ones, as the 9800SE has 4 negs and 1 pos on newegg.com.

[Bio-Hazard]

I thought that the whole idea behind a high end video card was to get the best quality picture with all the eye candy turned on and the highest frame rates, thus the need for the brights to be bright and the darks to be darks. You can't say one card is better than the other if the image quality isn't there.

[Scott]

Glad to see I am staying out of this one.

[Bio-Hazard]

I'm trying not to take sides as I like both brands and they both seem to perform fairly close to each other. Biggest thing I don't like about ATi other than the price, but that's also dropping, is the noise from the cooler. Other than that, for me, it pretty much a toss up as to which one offers me the best gaming performance of my buck. All that VIVO and the like, they can keep, I've no use for it my self...............;)

[Kougar]

I will reiterate: Price/performance is what I look at, whther it's ATI or Nvidia, or Intel and AMD. Features come in second usually if I have any use for them. I learned that lesson when I got my 9600XT and should've gotten a 9700 Pro for a little less...

I personally enjoyed HDR on HL2, because it's more realistic. You come out of a dark tunnel you've been hiding in, and in most games it's just daylight again, you look underneath the sun and shoot the bad guy. With HDR, you have to realize that in RL if you tried that you'd blind yourself briefly, and HDR does that. Same with jumping out of the desert sun into a unlighted building without windows in search of bad guys... you won't and shouldn't see anything until your eyes "adjust". But I can accept that HDR is just another feature and therefore a user's preference.

Now, about the ATI SE cards... SE is the lowest of the low model card you can buy with ATI. I'm sure the comments would be similar with nVidia's own lowest-end model cards. "SE" and nvidia's "LE" cards are for poeple who don't realize what it means, and just walk into a physical store and half the time grab them as they sit next to the expensive XTs and GTs on the shelf. And then they come away with a negative impression of the card's performance. I see that all the time in stores... They walk in, grab a 9600XT or 9800SE for $200 still, when on ebay you can buy a new retail boxed unit for $40-60 without tax.

[Bio-Hazard]

SE versions is what the different venders build to use up all their marginal parts so as not to eat the profit loss..........;) They normally have slower ram and often DDR instead of GDR, a reduced memery interface (ie: 128 or less instead of 256). They also use cheaper PCBand coolers. So if you're looking for any sort of performance, stay away from the SE versions.
There have been a few exceptions in the past where a SE version could be flashed or other wize modded into the full version of the same modle, but those are rare. Basicly with a SE version, you get what you pay for, a low end card that's trying to be sold to people that don't read the fine print about memory interface, pipelines and the like.......;) Stay away, far, far, away.

[Chakka]

I think that no one here talked about the point of power consumption...and my vote right now goes to nvidia.

Nvidia's overall cost/performance ratio is much greater than ATI's because you need a 1 Kilowatt nuclear power plant to run 2 1900xtx video cards in crossfire mode. Not only are the vid cards more expensive, but also the cost of the psu would be approximately $250 or twice the cost of a psu to run the 7900 series in SLI mode.

I have an OCZ Powerstream 520w PSU with 33a on the 12v rail that will run 2 7900gts or 7900gtxs (just barely meets minimum requirements) to run the highest end Nvidia graphics cards in SLI mode. The cost of my PSU was $114 with free shipping from newegg (was on sale when i bought it).

So if you take into consideration the overall cost with psu, Nvidia trounces ATI. That was the point Nvidia was trying to make with the latest 7900 series revision - efficiency and cost of ownership.

Im no fanboy of either company, I just look at the cost of ownership for the best bang for the buck.

[Bio-Hazard]

Everyone already knows that the ATi X1900XTX uses nore power than Nvidias new top cards, that's why one of the reasons Nvidia reduced the die size of the new cores, to reduse heat and power demand. But you are totally mis-leading people when you state the power requirments on the ATi cards.
Any high quality PSU over 550 watt/38 amp on the 12v rail will push a X1900XTX CrossFire system, while this is more that Nvidia requires, it's not out of this world.

"Power supply notes:

Connection to the system power supply is required:
450-Watt power supply or greater, 30 Amps on 12 volt rail recommended (assumes fully loaded system)
PCI Express compliant power supply required. Connect directly to the power supply with a 6 pin PCI Express power connector
For CrossFire™: 550 watt power supply or greater, 38 Amps on 12 volt rail "As for costing $250 for said PSU, my old Hiper that I've been pushing my water cooled rig with meets those PSU specs and cost about the same or less than your OCZ, as low as $99 at some places.

http://www.xoxide.com/hiper-power-supply-black.html

And now this move on to the price question, have you even bothered to check prices after the ATi price drop this month??? Name brand retail X1900XTX cards can be found at Newegg for around $450 after rebates and the CrossFire card for around $500. At the current pricing at Newegg, the ATi cards are cheaper than the Nvidia 7900GTX cards. Granted part of this is due to the high demand and card shortage of the Nvidia cards, but please, lets post the current facts and not what was going on several months ago.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?N=2000380048+1305520549+1067919675&Submit=ENE&SubCategory=48

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?N=2000380048+1305520549+1067919676&Submit=ENE&SubCategory=48

[Chakka]

Sbrem, I was being facitious but trying to make the point that you need more amps on the 12v rails than the competing 7900 series Nvidia cards.

As I stated in my comments - which I hope are still open on this forum - that I am neither a fan of either company. I just didnt go with the ATI video card because of 2 things:
1. New PSU
2. New Motherboard to run in Crossfire (while I dont know the actual detail of crossfire, I have a Nvidia mobo right now so thats why I didnt mentioned it because I dont know if you can run 2 ati's in crossfire mode on a Nvidia mobo...

I think the ball right now is in ATIs court to make a more efficient and less power hungry video card - otherwise we will need to get a nuclear power plant to run these cards aka nvidia new quad gpu is even more power hungry). I think that Nvidia is moving in the right direction and we will just have to see if ATI responds to what I look for in a system.

EDIT - Irregardless of prices, most of us who have purchased PSUs in the past year or two would still need to replace/upgrade their PSU because few of us would have purchased one with 38a on the 12v rail because it wasnt necessary to run the ATI 1900 series in crossfire mode. - IMO - Nvidia took the right steps so that my OCZ powerstream would still run the 7900gtx in SLI mode (it would be the max limit to the OCZ). AMD is going in the right direction too cause their new AM2 chips are rated to run at 89w or 65w, which is less power hungry than the previous generations.

[Chakka]

Here is a new review from Xbit labs. Its fairly indepth and compares the nvidia 7900gt to the ati 1800 series but the biggest complaint that I have with the 7900gt is the loudness of the fan...which is confirmed here in the review. Looks like I will have to eventually void my warranty if I want to silence the thing cause the rest of my rig is virtually silent (I use silenx 120 fans that are 14dba with 58cfm or more, depending upon model). I have to say I am really pissed off regarding the fan noise of this otherwise great video card.

Here is xbit labs confirmation of the fan noise on the 7900gt:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/geforce7900gt_4.html

[Bio-Hazard]

Water cool the thing........;)

[z3r0C00L]

I think that no one here talked about the point of power consumption...and my vote right now goes to nvidia.

Nvidia's overall cost/performance ratio is much greater than ATI's because you need a 1 Kilowatt nuclear power plant to run 2 1900xtx video cards in crossfire mode. Not only are the vid cards more expensive, but also the cost of the psu would be approximately $250 or twice the cost of a psu to run the 7900 series in SLI mode.

I have an OCZ Powerstream 520w PSU with 33a on the 12v rail that will run 2 7900gts or 7900gtxs (just barely meets minimum requirements) to run the highest end Nvidia graphics cards in SLI mode. The cost of my PSU was $114 with free shipping from newegg (was on sale when i bought it).

So if you take into consideration the overall cost with psu, Nvidia trounces ATI. That was the point Nvidia was trying to make with the latest 7900 series revision - efficiency and cost of ownership.

Im no fanboy of either company, I just look at the cost of ownership for the best bang for the buck.

ATi's x1900XT or XTX are cheaper then an nVIDIA 7900GTX card.

Take a look on Newegg.. I didn't choose the cheapest cards I chose those with lifetime warranties.

X1900XT $419USD after Mail in Rebate, $439USD b4 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814131005) Lifetime warranty.
x1900XTX $479USD after Mail in Rebate, $499USD b4 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814103175) Lifetime warranty.

If a lifetime warranty isn't important to you.. you vcan find them for about $25USD less with a 1 or 3 yr warranty.

Now the 7900GTX.

Cheapest 7900GTX is $509USD XFX version.
XFX GeForce 7900GTX (665MHz) (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814150142)

So yeah... ATi are MUCH cheaper. Now the 7900GT vs x1800XT battle.

Sapphire x1800XT 512MB $299USD (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102629)

And what about a 7900GT?

Biostar 7900GT $299USD (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814141024)

Oh... same price.. x1800XT comes with a higher quality cooler, more features, better performance and twice the memory.

Hmmmm...

Oh but Crossfire is suposedly expensive right?

Well..
ATi Crossfire edition x1800XT 512MB is... $325USD (http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=190265&Category_Code=ATI-PCI-E)

So yeah.. this also gives you free Super AA since the mastercard handles AA via hardware for a next to nothing performance hit.

Again.. there's no reason to buy nVIDIA unless you're a fanboy. ATi Xpress3200 based boards also overclock higher. ;)

[Chakka]

Again.. there's no reason to buy nVIDIA unless you're a fanboy. ATi Xpress3200 based boards also overclock higher. ;)

Me...fanboy? LOL. Anyway, what I keep trying to say is that the power requirements of the 7900 series allows me to keep the psu that I have.

So lets break this down a little further. I have nvidia based mobos cause ati at the time when I started building didnt have a solution. So if I were to go with ati now, the cost would not only be the 2 video cards for SLI/Crossfire, but also a new PSU and a new motherboard. For me to go ATI now, my total cost of ownership goes through the roof.

Now if I were building new today...I have a choice to make between ati or nvidia - which is a great thing!

Finally we have to keep in mind that the new AM2 chip is coming out in May and also new mobos and new ram we will all need if we upgrade. Personally, I will wait until the 2nd generation mobos and AM2 chips come out before I decide to upgrade (plus performance needs to be there too). So the 7900 series gpus are second gen nvidia gpus so I have put my money where my mouth is for an example.

However, even AMD is moving to more efficient chips - I believe (from memory) that the power requirment of these chips goes to 89w or 65w and there may eventually be a really low 35w chip. Nvidia, like AMD, sees the needs to reduce the POWER requirements on the new equipment otherwise we will need nuclear power psus to drive these rigs in the future. Now to make it clear to everyone, Im a being facitious regarding nuclear power generating psus...but hopefully you get my point.

Just my 2 cents!

[z3r0C00L]

Me...fanboy? LOL. Anyway, what I keep trying to say is that the power requirements of the 7900 series allows me to keep the psu that I have.

I wasn't calling you a fanboy. Perhaps I should have worded it as being a fan of nVIDIA's. Fanboy seems to be a tad insulting. Sorry about that.

Now as for power requirements.. it's not a benefit of nVIDIA's. The only reason nVIDIA's GPU's take up less power is because they're not as sopphisticated and do not hold as many features.

ATi's VPU's chave a feature list that is about twice as long as the 7x00 series. Mainly due to the chip's programmability. This of course takes die space.. which makes the die larger. Larger dies need more power to operate and generally produce more heat.

nVIDIA having a smaller die is by no means a decision of there's. It's because they took an existing 7800 architecture and moved it to a smaller process. they also refined it to shrink the die a tad.

So it's not really a benefit at all.. it's more of a miss. nVIDIA is missing many features. Physics processing, if available today on both architectures, would highlight this point.

[mousiness]

ATi's x1900XT or XTX are cheaper then an nVIDIA 7900GTX card.

Take a look on Newegg.. I didn't choose the cheapest cards I chose those with lifetime warranties.

X1900XT $419USD after Mail in Rebate, $439USD b4 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814131005) Lifetime warranty.
x1900XTX $479USD after Mail in Rebate, $499USD b4 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814103175) Lifetime warranty.

If a lifetime warranty isn't important to you.. you vcan find them for about $25USD less with a 1 or 3 yr warranty.

Now the 7900GTX.

Cheapest 7900GTX is $509USD XFX version.
XFX GeForce 7900GTX (665MHz) (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814150142)

So yeah... ATi are MUCH cheaper. Now the 7900GT vs x1800XT battle.

Sapphire x1800XT 512MB $299USD (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102629)

And what about a 7900GT?

Biostar 7900GT $299USD (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814141024)

Oh... same price.. x1800XT comes with a higher quality cooler, more features, better performance and twice the memory.

Hmmmm...

Oh but Crossfire is suposedly expensive right?

Well..
ATi Crossfire edition x1800XT 512MB is... $325USD (http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=190265&Category_Code=ATI-PCI-E)

So yeah.. this also gives you free Super AA since the mastercard handles AA via hardware for a next to nothing performance hit.

Again.. there's no reason to buy nVIDIA unless you're a fanboy. ATi Xpress3200 based boards also overclock higher. ;)

Dude you havent even considered companies that are credible add-in-board manufacturers like BFG, ASUS, or top-of-the-line XFX's, if you do your reaserch you will find that nVidias are much more stable in OCD environments, especially on DFI boards, and BTW, if you are looking
for a CHEAPER and more STABLE dual VGA solution SLi is much more cost-effective and performance-effective than ATi's crossfire, do your reaserch in benchmarks and in quality boards next time, but in the end its just like comparing ford to dodge to chevy, they all have advantages and disadvantages but the one that is most effective will ultimately win, which in Nvidia and chevy in this case :P

[z3r0C00L]

Dude you havent even considered companies that are credible add-in-board manufacturers like BFG, ASUS, or top-of-the-line XFX's, if you do your reaserch you will find that nVidias are much more stable in OCD environments, especially on DFI boards, and BTW, if you are looking
for a CHEAPER and more STABLE dual VGA solution SLi is much more cost-effective and performance-effective than ATi's crossfire, do your reaserch in benchmarks and in quality boards next time, but in the end its just like comparing ford to dodge to chevy, they all have advantages and disadvantages but the one that is most effective will ultimately win, which in Nvidia and chevy in this case :P


XFX is not top of the line... lol. I won't comment seeing as XFX is the main sponsor of this board.
How is Crossfire more expensive then SLI? I think I just proved it was cheaper.. perhaps you could elaborate? and how is SLI more stable? I think you're still reading old reviews.

SLI won't work with Conroe (that's right nVIDIA does not plan to make a chipset to support Conroe and Intel will not allow SLI to work on tehre dual PCI Express boards... oh but Crossfire will..;) )

Asus builds ATi boards as well. BFG has had issues with broken capacitors and XFX products have a huge return rate and a growing reputation as selling cards that don't work at the advertised clockspeeds. eVGA seems to be the better nVIDIA brand right now of the cheap cards.

DFI boards? The Asus A8R32-MVP oc's higher then any NF4 DFI board. DFI also recently introduced a board using the Crossfire 3200 which oc's even higher.

Credible add-in board manufacturers are:

MSI, Gigabyte, Asus, Sapphire, ATi, Abit and Club3D. Each one of these companies either sell more cards or have lower return rates or both then BFG, XFX or eVGA.

BFG used to be good but with the arrival of the 7900GT, they had to skimped on quality in order to hit the $300USD mark.

The highest quality boards right now are Asus A8R32-MVP and the DFI LANPARTY UT CFX3200-DR... both xPress 3200 boards.. I did my research.

I preffered nVIDIA when the 7800GTX 256MB/NF4 SLI were king. But now the tables have turned and the x1900 series as well as the xPress 3200 are the better products.

This is like an x800XT vs. 6800 Ultra, both won there share of benchmarks.. but in the end the 6800 Ultra offered more features and better performance in future games.... x1900 series are todays 6800 series cards..

[Chakka]

I wasn't calling you a fanboy. Perhaps I should have worded it as being a fan of nVIDIA's. Fanboy seems to be a tad insulting. Sorry about that.

Wasnt insulted at all...no problem. What Im trying to say is if I were in the market for a "new" build, Im glad that nvidia has some competition and I would seriously look at the ATI solution.

Its just that I have so much invested in the nvidia solution currently, it would cost me more to go to ATI now.

I think it all changes in the next gen of CPU chips - as you point out with conroe and when the AM2 solution comes out next month. So when I go into a new build end of this year, early next year....ATI will be a serious contender in my next build - but not now....its too expensive to switch at least for me.

[Kougar]

SLI won't work with Conroe (that's right nVIDIA does not plan to make a chipset to support Conroe and Intel will not allow SLI to work on tehre dual PCI Express boards... oh but Crossfire will..;) )

Why would nVidia not make a chipset for Conroe? Who says any Conroe chipset they make has to be SLI capable? Yes I don't think SLI will be coming to Intel's chipsets, but nVIDIA will be shooting themselves in the foot to not offer a chipset solution to the platform. About as badly as Intel did by scaling back on their low-end chipsets to change plants over to 90nm and suffering a hit. When you see numbers such as ATI getting a 486% increase in sales of their Xpress 200 chipset, not even counting nVIDIA and VIA, you know Intel "oopsed". I'd be very surprised if nVIDIA didn't release some form of Conroe support without SLI.

Nvidia is the company not allowing SLI to work on Intel systems, as the required Intel hardware is there. Intel just needed SLI certification (IE licensing fees & an agreement with nVidia) before they could sanction SLI on their 975x chipsets.

Just before nVidia bought out ULI, ULI released some modified drivers that enabled full SLI support with their own chipsets, even though they were never branded as SLI capable. Nvidia quickly yanked the driver support after the buy up and swept it under the rug... I mean, who wouldn't want a ~$78 excellent overclocking SLI motherboard? :rolleyes:

[z3r0C00L]

Sean Cleveland
Technical Marketing Manager
Platform Product Reviews
NVIDIA Corporation

Nvidia will not enable SLI support for Intel chipsets.

Sorry about the short answer, the reasoning was a bit odd.

"Intel chipsets do not provide enough bandwidth to support SLI"


See what's happening now is that since nVIDIA don't want to add support for Intel's Chipsets.. Intel has denied nVIDIA the right to produce a Conroe capable motherboard.

they're playing hardball.. it's not over yet but it's not looking good.

You can catch the dicsussion here. (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=96756)

nVIDIA claims Intel's Chipsets don't support enough bandwidth. Which is funny considering nVIDIA's chipsets are the ones who lack bandwidth. Crossfire takes up more bandwidth then SLI anyways. But meh... it's just nVIDIA being greedy as usual.

Here's an interview with the maker of the SLI patch...
From PC Perspective (http://www.pcper.com/#NewsID-2170)

Over the past few days I conducted an email interview with Regeneration. He's the man responsible for modifying the ULI "SLI Driver" (properly known as the PowerExpress utility) to run on chipsets not SLI-certified like VIA K8T890 and Intel 975X. NVIDIA and Regeneration have since reached an amicable resolution, but the interview is still insightful and gives a closer look at the man who drew the (legal) attention of one of the world's biggest graphics companies.

PCPer: What is your background and what motivated you to write the "SLI Patch"?

I’m dealing with computers for 13 years. I must say that I didn't write the SLI Patch myself. ULi/Asrock wrote it, I just added modifications in order to enable it for other chipsets. However, it’s not easy because to make perfect because of equipment issues. For that patch I tried to obtain an Asrock motherboard but I couldn’t find it in the shops here. So without many choices, I had to use beta testers in order to make the patch work well. It was very hard to the find right beta testers. I used Google to search for users with an Asrock motherboard with an ULi chipset and tried to convince them to beta test for that project and I must say that the success rate was very low. That’s the main reason why the SLI Patch is far from being perfect. With the right equipment, I will be able to increase the success rate up to 100%.

My motivation is the crazy street price. In my country (Israel) hardware is over-priced. For example, 7900GTX is around to 1000$ and 6800 is still around 800$. The target audience for both NVIDIA and ATi are gamers and I think that most of the gamers are young. In Israel the average salary is around to 1000$ and it’s hard to afford all these products. They always talk about MSRP but they never speak about the street price, especially outside of the USA.

I’m just trying to help the community and hope that everyone will be capable to enjoy from the latest technology. We all know that Radeon X1600/1300 series are capable to run together with software emulation. I always believed it’s possible for both SLI/Crossfire platforms. However, both NVIDIA and ATI are not providing much information to developers. For example, it is possible to adjust voltages in G70 via software but Nvidia is not providing the information to developers, only to their OEMs. SLI Motherboard in my country is around to 250-300$, we pay extra 100$ for their software. Another example is Intel. The only motherboard I know that support SLI for Intel users is nForce4 Intel Edition and it’s not easy to find it in the shops. After all, the “poor” deserve to play the latest PC games as well.

Just to remind you that if you want to go with SLI, you’ll need a very powerful power supply, SLI motherboard and two 3D cards. Most of the people can’t afford even a single card.

PCPer: Did you have any contact with ULI or NVIDIA prior to writing the software?

We had relations with ULi but few months before they were bought by NVIDIA we stopped receiving emails from them.

PCPer: Did you expect NVIDIA to send you a cease and desist letter? What did you expect from them?

No I didn’t expect it. I expected they will contact us nicely and in respected way. We’re giving them a lot of media exposure and the minimum we ask is just a small amount of the respect.

PCPer: Assuming you can continue writing the software, would you even consider it? Has this turned you off from it?

I will continue with my projects and I must say that yesterday I really wanted to drop all GeForce-based projects. I’m not asking for people to thank me but all I want is a small amount of respect. After all, we serve NVIDIA's customers and we do it for free.

PCPer: Regardless of how this incident with NVIDIA turns out, what are your plans for the future? Any other projects you care to mention?

I’m not a person for plans or schedules. I just live the moment and every day/hour/minute/second I might start a new project. I usually think about it when I try to sleep. However, I’m very busy recently because I’m trying to run NGOHQ and you probably know what it's like to run a website. A lot of reviews, news, articles and downloads are taking most of my free time - especially, when you do most of it on your own. My plans for the future is to make NGOHQ into a famous website and when I will have enough free time (and equipment) then I could start some new projects (without the need to beg people to beta test for me). Until then, I will keep working on my modified drivers and keep supporting the community with everything I can, in my available time. Oh and speaking about NVIDIA, today they called me and we solved everything. [ See update after this interview. - Ed. ]

PCPer: From your responses I get a sense that a major motivation is to allow people with limited money access to better performing technology. It is a noble cause, but software like yours can be easily abused by others. Do you think it's possible to balance/regulate this? Is it a concern for you?

You can see people abusing stuff everywhere. But when you receive positive emails and you see posts in forums that your work helped people and you see letters like: "You saved my LAN party" then you don’t care about the "abusers". It’s my only motivation. There is a negative side in everything, but you just learn to look at the positive side and appreciate it.

Look at overclocking software for example. It's very useful but on the other side bad people (virus writers) can use it to cause huge damage. I’m sure your hardware won't like too much voltage, but it’s not preventing us from using it right? Same thing goes for P2P and everything in life.

Do you draw any similarities between yourself to other contemporary code modders/hackers like Angel Trinidad (author of Omega drivers), or Jon Lech Johansen (aka. "DVD Jon" - the one responsible for breaking CSS encryption on DVDs)?

I don't know DVD Jon and I'm not dealing with cracking. Angel “Omegadrive” Trinidad is a good friend of mine and yes I agree we have some similarities between us. But he’s currently very busy (even more than me). There are many skilled people in the community and it's too bad not everyone is using their skills fully.

Both of us are dealing with modified drivers, some people think we are just taking registry entries and stuff like this but they don’t know that somehow we have to find out about these entries and to research it on our own. No one is providing that information and we have to do it all. Most of our users are gamers and Anti-Cheat applications don’t like when you make “cold” modifications. One time I made few modifications to the OpenGL driver and everyone who tried to use it got blocked by some anti-cheat application. Since then I’m trying to play it safe.

PCPer: What is the most positive / rewarding experience you gained during the whole process of creating the patch? Did you learn anything interesting? Do you have any regrets? How has this experience changed you as a person?

I don’t have any regrets, but sometimes I do feel it because I’m trying to help and many people refuse to beta test or support me. Sometimes I feel like I'm getting sick of it until I see the happy faces as a result of all my projects. And yes I learned that with some knowledge, desire and some free time you can make everything. And I mean EVERYTHING!

This case we have seen here is just one of many such stories we read about on a regular basis whether it be HomeBrew for the PSP, or modchips for the latest console system. As we have more enterprising consumers do more with their goods than was originally intended, you will have companies that will see it as a violation and pursue different avenues to secure their brand or intellectual property.

Occasionally a company will nurture grassroots innovation and even integrate it into their offerings. In those rare cases everyone wins.

I know it's been a frantic few days for him, so I thank Regeration for his time to answer our questions.

As it stands right now Intel and ATi as well as ATi and AMD are working closely on new products. ATi is even building boards under the Intel brand. ATi's marketshare of the chipset market has risen to 14% almost 15%... they're challenging VIA right now.. nVIDIA are at about 6%. nVIDIA is only working with AMD at the moment... which is a VERY bad move. Intel will be back in the driver's seat in both the enthusiast and consumer market with the arrival of Conroe. Expect Intel and ATi to surpass AMD and nVIDIA by a LARGE amount. Also ATi's royalties from the Xbox 360 and Nintendo Revolution will start coming in and showing up.. expect ATi to grow in size significantly.

[z3r0C00L]

Things hurting nVIDIA... PS3 delay, battle with Intel and lacking features. They're also behind on the technology curve. nVIDIA next part will not completely follow DX10 spec. Seems they haven't been able to fully meet the unified shader architecture... at least that is the word from nVIDIA. To be fair ATi did have a lead in that department with the Xbox360 VPU.

All in all things are looking up for ATi. Investor groups are calling there stock a BUY right now.. whereas nVIDIA stock is a hold (neutral). Don't need to believe me... these next few months will highlight all of this.

[Kougar]

Wow, thanks for the info! I didn't realize it was Intel that wasn't allowing nVidia to produce silicon for Conroe... that makes much more sense, although it hadn't occured to me to look at it from the opposite perspective.

Now that nVidia had to buyout ULI, I guess that leaves SiS/VIA for the low-end Conroe market, with Intel and ATI to reap the profits for mid to high-end chipsets, especially if Conroe lives up to it's name...

Very detailed breakdown of the chipset business HERE. (http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/04/25/chipset_sales_q1/) ATI increased from 3% to 12% market share, Nvidia went from 6% to 9% due to increased demand for AMD systems, and VIA maintained it's 15% market share. Intel dropped from 69% this time last year, to 57%.

[z3r0C00L]

Ahhh.. I knew Ati's Marketshare had increase.. was not aware nVIDIA's increased however.. still smaller then ATi's.

Of course both will go down once Intel has it's 0.65U process up to speed and Conroe is out.

If I go back Intel it will be with an Intel Chipset that's for sure. There's nothing out there that can match the reliability of an Intel/Intel combination.

The fact it supports Crossfire is a bonus to me.

[Coolest-Tech]

AM2 isn't fast, but how about Socket F? Or AM3? Also, I've heard the G80 has been delayed till fall 06, same time as the R600 AKA Radeon X2000, so NVIDIA might be changing the cip architecture. Because if they do, it just might beat the R600. And about Grossfire, I've hear the limit of frames per second was 60, is this true? Also, Crossfie isn't as good as SLI, SLI is 95% and Crossfire 85%.

[Kougar]

AMD's LGA 1207pin socket F is solely designed for servers and dual/quad core Opterons. The extra pins were needed for the extra power and transfer links for quad-core package design would require.

As such I expect prices on just the mainboards will be high, and the quad-core Opterons very high for a good while once they are released...

AM3 is another matter though... If I am remembering it correctly, it's already anticipated to be AMD's answer to Conroe as AM3 will be AMD's 65nm parts.

The frames per limit you heard about used to be true in the early days of Crossfire. ATI has long ago started releasing drivers that are not limited to 60fps, for obvious reasons!

[Chakka]

This is all some interesting stuff on ATI. Didnt realize they had that much market share.

Well, about xmas time or a little thereafter, instead of going SLI with another 7900gt (since all the games that I see playing in the forseeable future this card can easily handle), I will look seriously at the ATI crossfire/am2/conroe alternative. Its nice to have an alternative.

One big issue with me is that I dont want to buy another psu. Hopefully ATI will do the same as nvidia and reduce the power requirements of the next versions of their cards. Just my 2 cents.

[Coolest-Tech]

About the ATi stock thing, last night ATi's Income was -63.3 Mil, now it's -66.3. I'm not so sure that it's a good idea to buy stock from ATi. However, Ageia, sounds like a good company, because the PhisX is the first of it's kind, so untill there is a competitor, they will have the full market share.

[Chakka]

It looks like ATI 1900xtx gets the nod in the oblivion game as the card or crossfire to have from anadtech. The article is here:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2746