Online Graphics Card Guides?

[Frank Marino]

I'm relatively new to the world of PC-building, and I'm still trying to learn about some of the in's and out's of graphics cards. Right now, I've got a 6600GT. I bought it because it was cheap, and it is SLI-ready. I'm not necessarily looking for a new card just yet, but I'm having a bit of trouble in some areas.

For one thing, I can't seem to find, even on Nvidia's site, the difference between GT's, GX's, and plain old Geforces.

On top of that, although there are clearly more and less expensive brands, I've never seen any review give a brand-by-brand comparison. Are there any major differences between, for example, EVGA's 7800GT and Asus's 7800GT?

If anyone has any advice, or can point me to a good review site, that would be helpful.

[shanewu]

For one thing, I can't seem to find, even on Nvidia's site, the difference between GT's, GX's, and plain old Geforces.
The problem with the suffixes that get added to cards is that the hierarchy can and often does change with each generation. From one family of cards, the "Ultra" might be the top dog. Then for the next family, the top is the "GTX" but that's only until the "GTX 512" is launched.

I can't point you to any specific guide on the subject, but I can assure you that any time you have a question about them, we will help you here at Bjorn3D. Don't be afraid to ask any question. We don't look down on newbies and actually I like to think that out of many forums, we treat newbies the best. :) After all, at one time, we were all newbies. No one's born knowing all this stuff.

On top of that, although there are clearly more and less expensive brands, I've never seen any review give a brand-by-brand comparison. Are there any major differences between, for example, EVGA's 7800GT and Asus's 7800GT?
All of the differences between brands aren't always the same, but there are several main differences to look for usually:

1. Core and memory clock speeds

2. Package contents, aka bundle

3. Cooler

4. Warranty

Once again, any specific question you have will be answered quickly and to the best of our abilities. :)

[Fantasma]

I´ll try to ask some of your questions:
For one thing, I can't seem to find, even on Nvidia's site, the difference between GT's, GX's, and plain old Geforces

Well, in the old 6800 series you have in performance order:
6800ultra------6800GT-----6800GS----6800-------6800LE--6800XT
being LE and XT versions nearly equal.
A company (Point of view) released the 6800GX that was an overclocked 6800, so it would be between 6800GS and 6800.

In the 6600 series, you have:
6600GT-----6600------6600LE (LE can change to other letters but are similar to the LE version)

In the new 7800 series, you have:
7800GTX 512------7800GTX------7800GT------7800GS(this is AGP only)

If you want to read some comparisons of a lot of cards, you can read the 3d digest´s from this page:
http://www.digit-life.com/video.html

Also, you can read specs comparison from:
http://www.rojakpot.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=88&pgno=0

[Frank Marino]

I can't point you to any specific guide on the subject, but I can assure you that any time you have a question about them, we will help you here at Bjorn3D. Don't be afraid to ask any question. We don't look down on newbies and actually I like to think that out of many forums, we treat newbies the best. :) After all, at one time, we were all newbies. No one's born knowing all this stuff.

I appreciate that, though you may come to regret that offer. I have a lot of questions...


All of the differences between brands aren't always the same, but there are several main differences to look for usually:

1. Core and memory clock speeds

2. Package contents, aka bundle

3. Cooler

4. Warranty

Once again, any specific question you have will be answered quickly and to the best of our abilities. :)

I've read a bit about Core speed v. Memory speed, and as far as I can tell, it's very similar to processor speed v. ram speed, right? Is this a huge effect? Is it more significant than the size of the ram?

As for the cooler, I haven't noticed any heat issues with my 6600GT, at what level does that start to play in? Do the faster cards overheat easily, or is it just a noise issue?

[Frank Marino]

Well, in the old 6800 series you have in performance order:
6800ultra------6800GT-----6800GS----6800-------6800LE--6800XT
being LE and XT versions nearly equal.
A company (Point of view) released the 6800GX that was an overclocked 6800, so it would be between 6800GS and 6800.

In the 6600 series, you have:
6600GT-----6600------6600LE (LE can change to other letters but are similar to the LE version)

In the new 7800 series, you have:
7800GTX 512------7800GTX------7800GT------7800GS(this is AGP only)


This is a bit confusing. I always thought that the 6600GT was hither than the 6600. Am I reading your diagrams wrong, or is the GT the slowest one?

In general, though, would it always be better to, say, buy the worst 6800 than the best 6600, or the worst 7800 than the best 6800? And finally ( I told you guys I have a lot of questions...), would it be better to get the best 128mb 6800, or the worst 256 6800?

[Fantasma]

Well, in the old 6800 series you have in performance order:
6800ultra------6800GT-----6800GS----6800-------6800LE--6800XT
being LE and XT versions nearly equal.
A company (Point of view) released the 6800GX that was an overclocked 6800, so it would be between 6800GS and 6800.

In the 6600 series, you have:
6600GT-----6600------6600LE (LE can change to other letters but are similar to the LE version)

In the new 7800 series, you have:
7800GTX 512------7800GTX------7800GT------7800GS(this is AGP only)


This is a bit confusing. I always thought that the 6600GT was hither than the 6600. Am I reading your diagrams wrong, or is the GT the slowest one?

In general, though, would it always be better to, say, buy the worst 6800 than the best 6600, or the worst 7800 than the best 6800? And finally ( I told you guys I have a lot of questions...), would it be better to get the best 128mb 6800, or the worst 256 6800?

You are reading the diagrams wrong, 6600GT is better than 6600.
The vanilla 6800 is better than 6600GT, however 6800LE/XT are slower than 6600GT, so you can buy the 6800LE/XT over 6600GT only if you want to mod it (unlock pixel pipelines and vertex pipes) which is not guaranteed.

The worst 7800 is better than any of the 6800.

About the 256mbvs128mb, I would choose the order of the diagrams, that is to say, I prefer a 6800 128Mb than 6800XT 256Mb, the first one will be faster. However, if you can choose between the same card model ( 6800GT 256Mb and 6800GT 128Mb), choose the card with the higher amount of RAM.

[Frank Marino]

Uh... Fantasma, I seem to have accidentally put you on my ignore list, and I can't find any way to un-ignore you.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying. I had originally thought that that was the order. the LE version feels a bit like a misnomer, since LE generally stands for limited eition.

I never really knew how memory size and model number (6600, 6800, etc) worked against eachother. The only clear difference between models that I could see was the number of pipelines. Since I don't really understand what those are, I figured that it wasn't a huge issue. I've been wrong before.

Is there any plan to release a mid-level version of the 7000's? I like to stay one step behind the crest, because it seems a lot cheaper, but If the difference between 7800's and 6800's is that large, I might want to skip over the 6800 on my next upgrade.

Thanks again. Does anyone know how to un-ignore someone?[/i]

[shanewu]

Frank, I think what you want is something we all want... standard naming conventions that would make it easy to compare video cards based on name alone... well, it's not going to happen. :(

There are not set rules that we can tell you unfortunately, even within brands or within ATI or NVIDIA.

As you can see in the examples, GT is highest for 6600 but GTX is highest for 7800 but Ultra is highest for 6800. It's all about what the marketing nerds decide to confuse us with every time they release a new card.

-- I'll see if I can figure out the un-ignore thing --

[Null]

Uh... Fantasma, I seem to have accidentally put you on my ignore list, and I can't find any way to un-ignore you.

Hopefully, Mr Un-Iggy will be fixed soon.

Til then, to read an iggy post, open a new window but don't log in.

Sorry pym, but you're my iggy victim.

I was gonna quote ya, but I goofed.

Woe is me.

[shanewu]

Try going here: http://www.bjorn3d.com/theforum/ignore.php

I tested it out and got an error when trying to get someone off my list so this might need fixed by Bjorn. Let me know if it works for you or not please.

[Fantasma]

Uh... Fantasma, I seem to have accidentally put you on my ignore list, and I can't find any way to un-ignore you.

lol

Is there any plan to release a mid-level version of the 7000's? I like to stay one step behind the crest, because it seems a lot cheaper, but If the difference between 7800's and 6800's is that large, I might want to skip over the 6800 on my next upgrade
Nvidia has plans to do a midrange version of the 7800, the 7600 that would fit in your plans.

About the memory thing, usually, it´s more important the speed of memory than the amount but it depends on the card and the game, to see the differences, you have to read comparisons and reviews.

[werty316]

Try ARP desktop video comparison.

[Frank Marino]

Nvidia has plans to do a midrange version of the 7800, the 7600 that would fit in your plans.

About the memory thing, usually, it´s more important the speed of memory than the amount but it depends on the card and the game, to see the differences, you have to read comparisons and reviews.

Hey, I can see you again. Nice.

This is why it's nice to have someone to ask. I always assumed that memory size mattered most. Is the same true with PC ram?

[3D_Mind]

Seeing as only Nvidia has been mentioned so far, I will contribute ATI's offerings, read from right to left, high to low:

The X1900 was released about 2 weeks ago and is the fastest card in the world by a small but measurable bit.

X1800 Series:
X1800XT------X1800XL

X800 Series:
X850-----X800 XTPE------X800XT-------X800Pro------X800SE

X700 Series:
X700XT------X700Pro------X700

--------The X800SE is slower then all the X700 series cards, but all other X800 series cards are faster then the X700s.

The X600 and X300 Series cards are not worth mentioning as they are slower then a Radeon 9800!


This information was swiped from Futuremark:
http://discuss.futuremark.com/forum/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=techdisplayadapters&Number=4654725&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=1

The link has a good chart and a little technical info about all the cards, enjoy! :D

If I missed anything or something is wrong just complain!

[Fantasma]

This is why it's nice to have someone to ask. I always assumed that memory size mattered most. Is the same true with PC ram?

The amount of RAM is important for graphics too, the thing is that vendors usually sell you the right amount of ram (they are not going to sell you a 7800 with 64Mb) or at least they will do it in the mid end and high end cards. In pc is a bit different, the amount is very important as you need that memory for everything. In pc, nowadays it´s a must to have at least 512mb of RAM of any speed. Once you have that minimum of memory, you should choose the fastest one (DDR 400 over DDR333, etc).
I don´t know if I have done good answers but if you have more to ask, feel free to do it :D

[Frank Marino]

This is why it's nice to have someone to ask. I always assumed that memory size mattered most. Is the same true with PC ram?

The amount of RAM is important for graphics too, the thing is that vendors usually sell you the right amount of ram (they are not going to sell you a 7800 with 64Mb) or at least they will do it in the mid end and high end cards. In pc is a bit different, the amount is very important as you need that memory for everything. In pc, nowadays it´s a must to have at least 512mb of RAM of any speed. Once you have that minimum of memory, you should choose the fastest one (DDR 400 over DDR333, etc).
I don´t know if I have done good answers but if you have more to ask, feel free to do it :D

You've been more than helpful, and I really appreciate your respones, and I most definitely do have more to ask. The speed of the ram is how quickly the ram works, or how quickly it's accessed?

Back, specifically, to video ram, you've got ram speed, number of pipelines, and the whole 1x, 4x, and 16x situation. Are these all independant? Is one more important than the other, or will they generally be matched according to graphics card?

[Frank Marino]

X1800 Series:
X1800XT------X1800XL

X800 Series:
X850-----X800 XTPE------X800XT-------X800Pro------X800SE

X700 Series:
X700XT------X700Pro------X700

--------The X800SE is slower then all the X700 series cards, but all other X800 series cards are faster then the X700s.

The X600 and X300 Series cards are not worth mentioning as they are slower then a Radeon 9800!


If I missed anything or something is wrong just complain!

So basically, the ATI system is just as convoluted and messed up as the Nvidia one. Great. And they wonder why people are intimidated by the concept of building their own computers...

I definitely wouldn't have guessed that the X300 and X600 were slower than the 9800's, didn't it come out later? Is the X-series just like Nvidia's 5,6, and 7 series, where they started a new family of cards, ranging from economical to powerful, or was it a marketing scheme?

[Frank Marino]

Til then, to read an iggy post, open a new window but don't log in.


By the way, thanks for this, I've been doing this, and it's working. It just takes a bit more planning now.

[Fantasma]

The speed of the ram is how quickly the ram works, or how quickly it's accessed?


The speed I was talking about are the Mhz that the memory is capable of running at, so it´s how quickly the ram works if I´m not mistaken (someone can correct me if I´m wrong). The speed of the memory is in the specs of the product. The access speed is the latency of the memory. That latency is different for every vendor, but you can´t change it or overclock it as it´s very risky and can damage your card. The latency makes the same card from two companies (for example a 6600GT from gigabyte and a 6600GT from asus) to be one 1-2frames faster than the other. So the latency doesn´t make a lot of difference in graphics card, you should care about the Mhz of the memory and the bus width of that memory. For example, a 400Mhz 256bit memory width is faster than a 500Mhz 128bit memory.

You have to remember this: 256bit=2x128bit; that is to say, a 500Mhz 128bit memory is as fast as 250Mhz 256bit one.


you've got ram speed, number of pipelines, and the whole 1x, 4x, and 16x situation. Are these all independant? Is one more important than the other, or will they generally be matched according to graphics card?

That is difficult to explain, every card usually are matched in all specs but sometimes they create cheaper versions of cards that gets a bottleneck in one of those aspects. For example, it´s useless to have a 16pipes card with a 300Mhz 128bit memory bus as you will have a bottleneck in the memory. The only way to compare graphics cards are comparing them in all the aspects as all of them are important so they must be balanced. You only can speak of a card being better than another by benchmarks and considering every aspect of the card, so all characteristics are important at the same level.

About 1x, 4x, 16x, I don´t know exactly what you are speaking about, I can imagine that they are the bus speed of your graphics port (PCI-E or AGP). The port makes the bandwidth of the connection between the card and the mobo but today´s graphics don´t use more than 8x (the max than the AGP port can provide). the 9800 cards could run at 4x without problems.

[shanewu]

I'm assuming by "1x, 4x and 16x" you are referring to the PCI Express slots... is that correct?

Currently, there are only x16 PCI Express video cards on the market, so you don't need to worry about that.

[Frank Marino]

I'm assuming by "1x, 4x and 16x" you are referring to the PCI Express slots... is that correct?

Currently, there are only x16 PCI Express video cards on the market, so you don't need to worry about that.

So what are the other PCIE slots for?

[Fantasma]

For other expansion cards like ethernet pci-e x1 cards, anyway, here you have a list of several cards working in different pci-e slots:
http://www.pcisig.com/developers/compliance_program/integrators_list/pcie

[Frank Marino]

I'm assuming by "1x, 4x and 16x" you are referring to the PCI Express slots... is that correct?

Currently, there are only x16 PCI Express video cards on the market, so you don't need to worry about that.

So the 1x and 4x are AGP, then?

Was it just an advertising gimick that they named PCIE 16x? Is there a continuum of some sort between 4x AGP and 16x PCIE?

[werty316]

No 1x and 4x slots are PCI-E and not for display cards but more for other addon cards.

[Fantasma]

It depends on your mobo, if you have an old AGP mobo, you would have AGP8x (and you can run it at 4x or 8x) and PCI slots.
In new mobos, you can have PCI-E x16 slot (or two PCI-E 8x for SLI), PCI-E 4x slots, PCI-E 1x slots and pci slots, that´s all

[Frank Marino]

It depends on your mobo, if you have an old AGP mobo, you would have AGP8x (and you can run it at 4x or 8x) and PCI slots.
In new mobos, you can have PCI-E x16 slot (or two PCI-E 8x for SLI), PCI-E 4x slots, PCI-E 1x slots and pci slots, that´s all

Oh, ok. Sorry that took so long for me to understand. One of the articles said that AGP and PCI-E couldn't coexist, which confused me, since I have 4x and 1x on my board, as well as PCI-E.

Apparently, Asus doesn't think that 1x is very important, since they placed them on my board in such a way that if you have SLI set up, you can't fit anything in the 1x slots.

Thanks again guys.

[Fantasma]

Really, AGP and PCI-E can be found in the same mobo (like this one http://www.asrock.com/product/939Dual-SATA2.htm) but you can´t use both at the same time

[azu]

Really, AGP and PCI-E can be found in the same mobo (like this one http://www.asrock.com/product/939Dual-SATA2.htm) but you can´t use both at the same time

Really now.. mebbe you should go study some more. [yes i know my spelling is wrong. get used to it. i prefer mebbe rather than maybe]

Anyhow, to the topic,

AGP and PCIE can be used at the same time. Who said you cant?
Its the same thing as using a PCI slot and an AGP slot at the same time. It splits to two different monitors and doesn't support anything like SLI where two video cards support each other.

[find me on ocforums.com sn: azu if you have issues with what i said]

Anyhow a quick guide.

the 1x 4x 8x no x 16x refer to speed designations. or rather, channels in communication.

logically 1 is the lowest and 16 is the highest.

in MOST sli boards. the slots are both x16 slots. however, when running in sli mode, they switch to two x8 x8 slots instead of of a x16x1 slot configuration [ i know its wierd..]. [not that theres much performance difference. theres too much raw bandwith to cover up for the loss] Anyhow, there are boards with SLi that run in x16 x16 those are called a8n32sli if you buy asus, otherwise they are commonly denotated as "32" somewhere in the title. * [further explanation at the bottom]

Anyhow, these values are not equal to AGP. those that i just mentioned were PCIE values. I guess you could think of it as 1x PCIE = 8x agp. although, this is certainly not the case. but just for imaging purpose, i guess that will do. [theres still plenty of bandwith in 8x agp. don't worry, people are just crazy and had to go SLI]

So now you know, it can coexiste. and it can cooperate, just not in conjuction with each other to display one screen.


* when running in SLI the controller can only handle 16 channels. That is why the a8n32sli has two NF4 controllers.



and loll to the comment about the 1x not being important. and yes, it isn't very important for now. I can't find any device that is really 1x with benefits.

Yes i only have this one post. I signed up just to answer this question since i don't want him to be misinformed.

And if your asking..

my system specs
CPU: AMD X2 3800+ @ 2.5ghz 1.385v w/XP90C 120mm fan [helps MOSFETS :D]
MB: Asus a8n SLI Premium
RAM: (512x2) Crucial Ballistix 16T kit @ DDR416
GPU: XFX 7800GT SLI 450/1050 83.10




Okayy im just gonna answer the first post now.

Okay the difference between lets say a 7800GT and a 7800GTX not only by name but by pipeline. If the card is of exactly the same serious number 7800* then you can assume that they cards internall processing structure is identical. However, during manufacture of the gpu, one of the pipes might have been a little weak, so they lazer cut them. That is why the GTX has 24 pipes and the GT only has 20. the quality of the core also determines how high the maxiumum overclock can be achieved.

There are difference between each manufactures designation of each card. however, they all recieve a standard design to follow and a standard gpu. what they do to it is up to them. For example, my XFX is stock cloked at 450. the standard 7800GT is clocked at 400. Evga has theirs clocked at 445. They have different standards. Thats all. Some say you get what you pay for. Some of the cards are a premium to use. some are the better bang for buck. Either way, it you doing a comparison between different serries lets say the 6600GT and the 6800, its best to look at benchmarks for actual performance as well as a comparison chart showing the different standard internal differences.

The 6600GT uses a 128 bit memory. the 6800 uses 256bit memory. this allows the 6800 to achieve more bandwith with memory allowing to get better results in higher resolutions. the 6600Gt also has less pipes which [in a way] can mean that the amount of imformation per clock that can be processed is much lower. However, the clock speed of the 6600GT is ultra high [as you mite have noticed.. its 500 stock and even high with companies like BFG] The 6800 is 300 or 350 i forgot.. but either way, the clock speed then compensates for this loss and that is why it performans better than the 6800 in some circumstances.

So its complex.
Look at memory size, memory bit ratings, core clock, pipelines, vertex shaders, pixel shaders. more is always better.

*there is more on the pixel shader, vertex shader and all that crap that alters performance even more but thats relatively.. new i guess and well, yeah. nothing usable yet. although manufactures have been able to change them so i guess they're 'overclockable'? ehh thats for hte future.

[Fantasma]

Hmmm, true, sorry, I was mistaken, it seems that I misread in some site, I have just read this from the asrock mobo:
"M1695's innovative HyperTransport tunnel architecture integrates non-blocking symmetrical HyperTransportTM 2.0 links which enables motherboard manufacturers and system integrators to pair up M1695 with other high performance HyperTransport-based chipsets and bridge devices either natively or via the HTXTM connector. When coupled with ULi's M1567 south bridge, the combination offers motherboard manufacturers the unprecedented capability to support PCI Express x16, AGP 8X, PCI graphics cards simultaneously on the same mainboard. Such capability makes it possible to create a fully surrounding virtual reality environment using multiple high resolution displays driven by the three graphics technologies residing in the same computer system."

It seems that I was wrong as what you can´t do is SLI with the AGP card and the PCI-E one