Critique (admire!) my upcoming build...

[vfrex]

I'm just about done choosing parts for my new computer, so let me know what you think. Sadly, I've spent a lot of my free time since April trying to perfect it, and I think it is as close as it could get. I plan to order today or tomorrow, so now's your opportunity to convince me on any last minute changes :twisted:

My plan was initially to have a $1500 budget. (Remember, I started planning this in April). However, I decided that with AM2 and Conroe coming, there was no reason to make a "higher-end" build. Add on that DX10 with Vista could quickly make my video card obsolete and I was drafting a new plan.

The new plan: Make an "intermediate" build that I will upgrade 12-16 months down the line when the new video card and cpu generation hit. With the goal of upgrading, I think it makes sense to go AM2.

Another thing that you should know is that my goal is to keep this very quiet. Fan noise is OK if I'm gaming, but I can't have all of the fans at full throttle when I'm trying to nap.

Initial Build:

Case: Antec P150
PSU: Included with case
Processor: AM2 Sempron 3000
Motherboard: Asus M2N-E
Memory: 2x512 Corsair XMS2
Video Card: XFX Geforce 7300GT
Hard Drive: SATA Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 160GB
Optical Drive: BenQ 16X DVD±R DVD

Fans: Nexus 92mm Real Silent Case Fan
Yate Loon 120mm

Cost: $671.12 USD

That will drop $10-15 depending on whether Newegg wants me to buy the case from them or not.


Upgrade #1:

Hopefully, the going price of the Athlon X2 3800 will drop to AMD's MSRP of $170 around the time of their cuts. If that happens, I will either sell the Sempron or RMA it, hopefully getting ~$60 back. That keeps me just about at $800, even if I throw in a $30 CPU cooler.

Total Cost: $800



Hypothetical Upgrade #2:

If I adhere to the budget, that leaves me $700 to upgrade video card and processor. If I can pull of the X2 3800 upgrade, I think there will be less pressure to upgrade the processor in 12-16 months.



I will most likely overclock the Sempron. If it is $75 new, how much do you think I will be able to get for it after a month or two of use? Is $60 an unreasonable prediction? Also, this motherboard only has one PATA slot. I have been told that connecting an optical drive and a hard drive on the same IDE cable is a bad idea. I don't really understand why this would be? If I find a deal for a large, cheap PATA hard drive, is there any reason why I shouldn't consider grabbing one to store non-essential stuff?

Also, my XP disk only has SP1. Am I going to have problems installing XP on the 160GB drive without slipstreaming SP2? What if I partition the disk before attempting the Windows installation?

[dracos]

I always partition my disks before an install if I need to, I never had a problem partitioning...

also I personally would not be so fast to jump on the AM2 just yet, let the bugs get worked out first.. Yes I love AMD, all my systems except 2 are AMD systems, but i have learned from experience that it's a lot less hassle to let others find the bugs than running into them yourself....

the hard drive, you can get a seagate barraccuda 320gig with perpendicular for around $110 at newegg, at least it was last I checked... with 16mb cache also..

for the vid card you can most likely get a 7600GT for a few dollars more, I don't know how much gaming you do but it might be worth the few dollars for the gaming performance if the system is going to stay the same for 12-16 months as you say..

the Ram, Corsair is always a good choice but which one is that? which speed? again here it all depends on what you want, spend a few dollars more and get some pc8500 and you have headroom for overclocking if you do it

[vfrex]

Memory: http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=85025-1

I am really an on & off gamer. I'll be addicted to a game for a month or two. One of the main reasons why I started looking into building a new computer was because Oblivion doesn't run well on my current one. I'll be completely over Oblivion by the time I do build it, but I'm sure something else will come along.

The passive 7600GT's are too expensive to really fit into this budget. As far as perpendicular drives go, what ever happened to not being an early adopter :twisted:

[dracos]

The perpendiculars have been around for a while actually, the am2 is new and it's not just the AM2 where the bugs could be, all the chipsets etc, and the main point was the price 320Gb for $110.00 not bad at all

as for the memory I would go with at the very least 2 gigs that way you won't have to worry about it later down the line, I've been running two gigs for a while now, when I have to drop to 1 gig I can really notice the performance difference
two gigs xms-2 (pc2-6400)for $164 after rebate http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820145590

$159 for a 7600Gt 256mb ddr3 with active cooling

if you want passive why not do liquid cooling? sort of passive, I have chipset,cpu and vid card in one loop all runs nice and cool

[werty316]

Heres my take; All your hardware looks great for now and upgrading to a X2 3800+ after the price drop to replace the Sempron is a good move.

Since it is one of the slowest Sempron models you'll be lucky if you could get $60 for a Sempron 12-16 months down the road so don't hope for $60.

As for putting a HD and ROM drive on the same PATA cable, I am not sure what effects it has but I would keep HD on seperate PATA cables; HD on primary and any ROM drives on secondary. Also I see no sense on buy a PATA if you plan on doing so. SATA is much easier to work with and there is also less cable clutter. Its always good to have a 2nd HD to keep backupdata incase the 1st HD crashes.

Just install your WinXP SP1 as normal and update XP to SP2 later so you should have any problems if you don't slipstream SP2 onto your XP disc. When you install a brand new HD XP partitions/formats it for you when you install XP.

$700 should be more than enough for the top of the line DX10 VGA card from ATI or nVidia. Also do you tihnk your would go SLi? If so maybe get a SLi board.

I would also go for 2GBs of ram. You notice a big difference between 1GB and 2GB. Ram is getting pretty cheap and decent 2GB kits can go for around $200.

As a final note I also say not to jump the gun on the AM2 just yet; I would wait for atleast one or two revision first if it comes to that before the K8L is released.

[mousiness]

IMHO, i say pay more right away than later, if you spend $800 on a oderate system, and want to upgrade it to top line, itll cost you 2k more, but if you go for a 2k system off the bat you will have saved that $800 rig, especially if youre planning on an expensive X2 3800+, i have personally learned that mistake with my mattress and for my pc im not upgrading from now on, just buying a good system off the bat, and with ever-changing technology, theres no way to keep up, so you might as well buy a premium system at a premium price

[werty316]

Come July 24 or 27th the X2 3800+ won't be so expensive ;)

[mousiness]

Thats like what,... a two car, two door garage? So does that mean you have four vehicles? I didn't notice that at first.
huh? and yeah the x2 3800+ will be really cheap by then the conroe will win it out and force prices to go down

[vfrex]

Ok, a couple of clarifications.

I would not try to sell the sempron in 12-16 months. I would sell it 1 month from when I order it.

As far as PATA hard drives go, I wouldn't really plan on getting one. But you have to figure that there will be deals for big ones as the standard becomes SATA. If I can get a massive PATA drive for next to nothing, is there any reason to not get it if that extra spot on my one IDE cable is free?

There are problems with XP dealing with drives over 120GB pre-SP2. I don't know if that is an issue with SATA or not.

The $700 would be for a processor and video card upgrade. The reason I am going AM2 is because I won't have to upgrade my motherboard or memory. In 12-16 months, I'll be able to move to K8L (or whatever AMD has out at that point).

The bottom line is that in 12-16 months, a $700 upgrade will get me pretty far. If 2GB seems necessary, I could get a kit for $150. That leaves me 550 for processor and video card. I won't have a top of the line system at that point, but I will have dodged the bullet of being made completely obsolete three months after I build.

[mousiness]

tahts a total overhaul dude, i suggest not doing that until you are certain of teh parts you will buy

[werty316]

Ah ok I get what you are saying now with the Sempron and getting X2 3800+ com price reduction day.

As for XP SP1 I think it can only read a HD as large as 137GB or around there but install SP2 after fixes that.

Oh $700 for CPU and video ok,.. well then you might have enough for a mid range DX10 VGA card and X2 3800+ with 1GB of memory. Only problem is how much a mid range card will cost once they are out but the $700 minus the cost of a X2 3800+ should be enough.

[mousiness]

spending too much money you might as well ahve crushed the sempron if youre only gonna be using it for a month

[werty316]

Wait and don't buy the Sempron if you plan on selling in 1 month; its a waste of $.

[vfrex]

The Sempron will sell for $50 at least. That means I lose $25 tops. Not a huge waste. Not to mention, it is not definite that the X2 3800's will hit their MSRP of $170 on July 24th. It might take weeks/month+ to reach that. I'm not going to wait.

Let me go back a bit more...If I buy the X2 3800 for $170 as I plan, and sell the Sempron for $60 as I plan, I will end up spending $800 TOTAL. Then, if I stick to my budget, that leaves me $700 to upgrade processor and video in 12-16 months. It also reduces the NEED to upgrade the processor so urgently, as I will have a dual core that can OC well.

Werty, I'm a little confused as to how you can install XP on a drive that you can't read from?

[werty316]

You should be able to install XP SP1 on a 300GB drive. It will just recognize it as 137GB. Once you install SP2 ,XP should see it as 300GB.

Why doesn't my PC see the full capacity of my 137GB+ drive? (http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/qcheck.htm#a1)

I don't know if this helps
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q305098

just slipstream SP2 to make things easier.

[vfrex]

The perpendiculars have been around for a while actually, the am2 is new and it's not just the AM2 where the bugs could be, all the chipsets etc, and the main point was the price 320Gb for $110.00 not bad at all

as for the memory I would go with at the very least 2 gigs that way you won't have to worry about it later down the line, I've been running two gigs for a while now, when I have to drop to 1 gig I can really notice the performance difference
two gigs xms-2 (pc2-6400)for $164 after rebate http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820145590

$159 for a 7600Gt 256mb ddr3 with active cooling

if you want passive why not do liquid cooling? sort of passive, I have chipset,cpu and vid card in one loop all runs nice and cool

Yeah, I realize that AM2 will be buggy. I've read about a few problems so far, and should be able to avoid all of the known issues so far. Also, about size of ram, bear in mind that I've been using 512 for the last 3 years. 1 gig should be sufficient for now. I did consider 2gb for a while, but...ok, AMD's processors are more dependent on tight memory timings than Intel. I didn't really see any reasonably priced DDR2 memory with tight timings. My assumptions are that by the time I make my next set of upgrades, the extra demand from the AMD switch to DDR2 will spur greater production and price reductions of lower timing ram than today. At that point, I might be able to get higher quality 2GB ram then than now. It is a gamble, but we'll see what happens.

As far as water cooling goes, I need to be able to transport this thing. Also, I would like to spend some time exploring air cooling before I go to water. In a year or so when I will have (hopefully) settled into a job, I might consider making a move to water, but not now.

[dracos]

as for portability and liquid cooling, my Corsair Nautilus has quick connects on it, just disconnect, transport and re-connect at destination, nice system actually...

for the ram, you mentioned you were going for Vista, you'll pretty much need the two gigs for Vista so why not get the 2gig now and enjoy it?

nut hey, whatever you want, it's your system after all...

[werty316]

as for portability and liquid cooling, my Corsair Nautilus has quick connects on it, just disconnect, transport and re-connect at destination, nice system actually...

for the ram, you mentioned you were going for Vista, you'll pretty much need the two gigs for Vista so why not get the 2gig now and enjoy it?

nut hey, whatever you want, it's your system after all...

Yeah Vista will run much smoother with 2GB than the minimum 512MB.

[vfrex]

Another problem with the RAM is that I have already ordered it. I did that a few days ago so that I could catch the tail end of a mail-in rebate.

[werty316]

Ah well you could always buy 1GB more for later if needed

[Kougar]

Okay, from the top :mrgreen:

If you plan to stick with just 1gb of RAM, then you should most definitely buy a single 1gb stick, not two 512mb sticks. Down the road you can buy a second 1gb stick and then run 2x1gb in dual channel mode.

Sorry Werty, but if you read your first link:

Windows XP Service Pack 1 (SP1) or later and Windows 2000 Service Pack 3 (SP3) or later both add 48-bit addressing support to the operating system. This support will allow access to drives larger than 137GB (128GB).

Windows XP with SP1 will recognize and install on a 300gb size drive just fine. You don't need to slipstream SP2 onto the CD. You should plan to spend an hour installing SP2 and then all the later patches and driver updates though, it's become a mess. I had 52 security and other fixes alone to install on my last XP with SP2 installation.

I was going to say it would be unlikely that you would get $60 for that used processor... but now, I will flat out say you NOT get $60 for your used AM2 Sempron 3000! Because ZZF is selling this chip for $62 shipped http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80504-1 (http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80504-1) If AMD slashes prices on their Sempron line at all, you would be lucky to even get $50 for it.

I just noticed your reply that you bought the ram though, oh well... ;)

Edit: If you use a HDD and a CDROM on the same IDE cable, you will take a performance hit but that is all, it will still work fine. I wouldn't do any major file transfers while listening to an audio CD though... ;) Furthermore, I agree that the only reason to buy an IDE drive is if you can find one at a huge discount. For the moment I've not seen this happening, SATA drive prices have reached the point where the're about even, and I am seeing both SATA and IDE drives in the usual weekly sales from local electronic stores. You know, the occasional ones where the drive is about 20 to 25 cents a gigabyte... ;)

[vfrex]

Simple solution to the $60 sempron at ZZF...i'll just buy it for $60 from there ;)

About the hard drive size thing...Maybe it was an issue with my old bios that I was running into. Honestly, I don't remember the specifics. I tried to get a 160GB pata drive working on a 7 year old machine and had a lot of trouble.

[Kougar]

Simple solution to the $60 sempron at ZZF...i'll just buy it for $60 from there ;)

Well, this is interesting. AMD does plan to slash their Sempron prices... however the Sempron 3000 is supposed to cost $77 and be slashed to $67 on the 24th of July.
Interesting that ZZF has it going for $62 shipped already... demand must be almost nill for some reason... ;)

http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/1779_large_full_pricing.png

[vfrex]

Interesting that ZZF has it going for $62 shipped already... demand must be almost nill for some reason...

That or its a typo. Maybe I should jump on it fast?

[mousiness]

what i meant was, overall like i said before, you are replacing your MoBo, CPU, Video Card, and some other things (minor) which would cost around 600$ of your current build, the only things you can salvage before upgrading is your HDD, and optical drives in the main parts of the working pc, thats about $200, so instead of spending money on the parts you are upgrading to as you said AM2, $600 is better spent on a motherboard+CPU combination and since your budget was $1500 a new video card like an ASUS passive 7600 wouldnt hurt the cost too much, so now you have spent almost $600 in parts you know will upgrade in 2-3 months, hardly enoughy time to get the pc in its heat momentum.

EDIT (all prices in CDN instead of USD)

[vfrex]

Eh, I think you are understanding this wrong, or I am understanding you wrong.

I'm spending $670 on the new build. If I can get a good enough price for my Sempron 3000 when AMD's X2 drops to its final price of $170, then I spend a total of $800 in the next month or so on the build.

I am going AM2 specifically so that when I choose to upgrade a year down the line, the motherboard and RAM can stay. AM2 is the socket that AMD will be moving forward with. So in a year, I will be able to upgrade my processor and video card without touching anything else. If my plan to move up to an X2 3800 a month after the initial build goes through, then I can go a lot longer than 12 months before upgrading my CPU.

[mousiness]

Oooooooh now i understand, its just i understood the original post wrong hehe, sorry bout the trouble, i was wondering why everyone else were talking about much different things as i was

[vfrex]

Probably my fault. I kinda rushed through the post and there seemed to be a fair amount of confusion. Now that you have it down, what do you think?

[mousiness]

i think its a really good idea, especially if the X2 3800+ drops to only $170, dual cores last a long time, thats now your main concern (the prices of the dual cores), unless you decide you want a better video card then $150 or so will be spent on another passively cooled card :-D

[vfrex]

In that case, I think I'll be moving forward with the order within the next 30 minutes!

[mousiness]

good luck vferex! and hope all goes well during the build

[Kougar]

In that case, I think I'll be moving forward with the order within the next 30 minutes!

Well, good luck with your build!

And to answer your earlier question, I don't think it is a typo. Newegg wasn't to much more, and from what I've seen ZZF almost always seems to be the first to discount of raise prices for their inventory of CPUs, compared to NewEgg. Conroe's release as already had a measurable impact on PC sales, so I'm sure that's a large contributing factor... but even more so, is the news that AMD plans to slash prices on the 24th. So those people that might actually want a Sempron could be holding off, or waiting to just buy a higher model AMD chip instead... there's no real shortage of possible explanations... :)

[vfrex]

Some of the parts are in. The CPU will arrive later today. However, this creates a bit of a dilemma. I have one more order of accessories that will arrive on Tuesday. That includes the 92mm fan for up front...ok, not critical. It also includes my YL 120mm fan to possibly replace the stock TriCool, and my thermal paste. So, I'd be using the stock HSF with the stock thermal pad.

I could wait until the thermal paste comes to install the CPU and get running, which would avoid the need for me to take the HSF off and on (I really hate that part). On the other hand, if any of my parts are DOA (or I run into the compatibility problem between the mobo and this PSU), or any other complications that would require an RMA come up, I'd like to sort that out and perhaps have the RMA off on Friday.

I don't think my curiosity will hold through the weekend, but I wanted to see what you guys thought. I figure the thermal pad will be harder to remove once it is heated, which is a definite downside.

[mousiness]

dont install anything until everything is up and running then youll see the problems that there possibly can be, and about the thermal pad, remove it only when you have all the parts for your pc so itll be in one, quick change of hardware and then itll all work out fine, but putting in these components seperately might cause problems with drivers and such

[vfrex]

The only actual component that isn't here yet is fan controller that I may or may not use. Everything else are sound dampening screws, fans, extension cables, screws, and of course the thermal paste.

[mousiness]

ok then putting it together now wont be a problem then but wouldnt you rather do it all at once? i know i would

[tomato]

...good things come to those who wait ;)

Since the chance of an RMA is really pretty low, I'd just wait until you receive all of you components and put it all together at once, rather than having to mess around with your comp twice and then risking damaging something that way...

[Kougar]

If I was in your shoes I'd probably couldn't stand waiting...

Removing the used thermal pad off of my stock Intel cooler was a little tedious but it came off just fine. Definitely recommend 92% grade Isopyroal alcohol though, it helps... ;) Then again, this is only a Sempron, I'm not sure if you'd get very much gains from later using your own thermal compound over the original thermal pad?

[mousiness]

im the non-patient kind of person but for such hardware even though not expensive or powerful id take care

[werty316]

Wait til you get part you need to run it bare and run tests from then make sure everything is running fine.

[vfrex]

Well, I built it. It went smooth for the most part, although it took me a good 30 minutes to remove the rear IO plate, and I cut my fingers up doing it. Then, the motherboard wasn't fitting quite right into the new one, so I couldn't mount it on the standoffs. So, no IO plate. Doesn't really matter to me since it's the back of the computer, but I should cover it up to prevent dust.

At idle, this processor doesn't even need active cooling. I decided to enable QFAN for the CPU while running memtest. Took a peak and saw that the fan was shut off completely. I got a bit scared and let the processor hit 120F before disabling QFAN which got it spinning again. I made a small BIOS tweak, and now it basically runs passive until ~110-115F.

One thing I'm having trouble figuring out is how to monitor the GPU temperature.


edit: I don't mind going back in, as the HSF was much easier to install than the one on my Barton. Also, I need to put some effort into cable management and such, so a second go will be good.

edit edit: I didn't get the 3D settings option in the NVIDIA control panel when using the latest driver from the XFX site. I got NVIDIA's, and now have that option, which includes the ability to monitor GPU core temp.

[werty316]

I always recommend to use drivers form nVidia's website as most VGA manufacturer websites like XFX ususally don't have newest drivers available.

[ToXic_WaSTe]

One thing I'm having trouble figuring out is how to monitor the GPU temperature.



Try everest, search majorgeeks.com it shows every sensor in the system

[werty316]

Try everest, search majorgeeks.com it shows every sensor in the system
Did you even read his whole posts here? It seems to me you never read everything in a person's post.
Well, I built it. It went smooth for the most part, although it took me a good 30 minutes to remove the rear IO plate, and I cut my fingers up doing it. Then, the motherboard wasn't fitting quite right into the new one, so I couldn't mount it on the standoffs. So, no IO plate. Doesn't really matter to me since it's the back of the computer, but I should cover it up to prevent dust.

At idle, this processor doesn't even need active cooling. I decided to enable QFAN for the CPU while running memtest. Took a peak and saw that the fan was shut off completely. I got a bit scared and let the processor hit 120F before disabling QFAN which got it spinning again. I made a small BIOS tweak, and now it basically runs passive until ~110-115F.

One thing I'm having trouble figuring out is how to monitor the GPU temperature.


edit: I don't mind going back in, as the HSF was much easier to install than the one on my Barton. Also, I need to put some effort into cable management and such, so a second go will be good.

edit edit: I didn't get the 3D settings option in the NVIDIA control panel when using the latest driver from the XFX site. I got NVIDIA's, and now have that option, which includes the ability to monitor GPU core temp.

[ToXic_WaSTe]

Did you even read his whole posts here? It seems to me you never read everything in a person's post.

Well you got me there, didnt read all the posts here, but we all do it... You just did a bit of time ago. Just tought i could help... :S