Contest Concept: Folding @ Home

[Das Capitolin]

Scott mentioned the idea of making the next contest to include Folding @ Home. I for one am all for this; it helps medical research and it might get you a prize.

I am not a representative of Bjorn3D outside of membership; nor do the posts in this topic represent what could be or what may be the next contest guidelines.

I would like to see well thought out ideas to help Scott fine tune the next contest. Here's my first entry.

Rules:
1) Must have at least 100 posts by the end of the contest month.
2) Posting anything forbidden or discouraged by Bjord3D forum rules during the contest month will immediately cause the contestant ineligible for the 1st place prize (assuming more then one prize). If there is only one prize, the contestant is disqualified from the competition immediately
3) The contestant must use only one name for the Folding@Home project, and that name must be the same (or as close as possible) to the name used in the Bjorn3D forum.
4) Scores prior to the contest start date will not be accepted. Only projects completed during the contest period will be accepted. :paw:

[Scott]

This is very close to what I am thinking. I will tell you exactly what your names will be on August 1st. I have that one all figured out so no one can cheat. I will also monitor the teams status with a special program we have to prevent cheating.

[XJnine]

Hmm... I might have to get my digital army fired up for this one.

[Scott]

Hmm... I might have to get my digital army fired up for this one.

Well I figured I could suck you into a contest. Of coasre your name will get changed for the contest on the team since you allready fold for Bjorn3D.

[Das Capitolin]

This is very close to what I am thinking. I will tell you exactly what your names will be on August 1st. I have that one all figured out so no one can cheat.

Perhaps people will have to post their initial entry in a forum thread and you would come back and edit their post with a folding name?

I will also monitor the teams status with a special program we have to prevent cheating.

There's a way to cheat at this? Or do you mean using more then one system?

[Bio-Hazard]

If they could/can use work server/data system, I'll have to get my son to load up Folding @ Home for me where he works if he can get the OK to do it............;) Boeing has a ton of servers................;)

[Das Capitolin]

If they could/can use work server/data system, I'll have to get my son to load up Folding @ Home for me where he works if he can get the OK to do it............;) Boeing has a ton of servers................;)

Yeah, the multi-computer idea might seem a bit unfair. I'm not sure how to make this folding contest idea totally "fair" to everyone. He with the most/fastest computers wins, and it shouldn't be that way IMHO.

[werty316]

Scott, is Das Capitolin taking your job now? ;)
All your guidelines/rules sound good to me.

Yeah, the multi-computer idea might seem a bit unfair. I'm not sure how to make this folding contest idea totally "fair" to everyone. He with the most/fastest computers wins, and it shouldn't be that way IMHO.

How else would you see this considering everyone doesn't have the same rig. I don't tihnk you should say it this way as Johnie might complain about it :lol: :coug:h XSR :cough:

[Das Capitolin]

Scott, is Das Capitolin taking your job now? ;)
All your guidelines/rules sound good to me.

No, I'm not after his job... yet. I am just trying to be helpful; as I am very appreciative for the prize I won, and still can't believe how generous he is.

How else would you see this considering everyone doesn't have the same rig. I don't tihnk you should say it this way as Johnie might complain about it :lol: :coug:h XSR :cough:

I just thought of another great way to keep it fair, so there will be no cheating.

I bring to you, people of Bjorn3D, my 5th and 6th rules:

5) Each completed project will give you one entry in the contest.

6) If the contest has one prize, then the winner is picked at random. If there are more then one prize, the contestants are divided into groups that correspond to the number of prizes, and the group competes for that level of prize. Example: Contestants who were in the top 1/3 of the entries would be in the 1st place drawing, the second highest group will be entered in the 2nd place drawing, and the final (lowest) group would be entered in the 3rd palce drawing.

Super-fair. Even Johnnie should be happy.

[werty316]

5) is good so there are no advantages with people with fast/more than one rig.

6) wouldn't be so fair as only the top 3 with the most entires would be eligibale for 1st prize. Everyone should have a chance at all three prizes; I thinking this: get as many entries per completed projects as you can and make the contest a random drawing for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. This way everyone has a chance at all three prizes even though the person with more completed projects has a better chance.

[Das Capitolin]

5) is good so there are no advantages with people with fast/more than one rig.

6) wouldn't be so fair as only the top 3 with the most entires would be eligibale for 1st prize. Everyone should have a chance at all three prizes; I thinking this: get as many entries per completed projects as you can and make the contest a random drawing for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. This way everyone has a chance at all three prizes even though the person with more completed projects has a better chance.

I originally suggested this, but then came to realize that the people who do all the extra work should be in their own group. If there are 30 contestants and 3 prizes, the groups would be split 10/10/10 based on their entries. Everyone still gets a chance to win.

[werty316]

Everone doesn't have the same chance at the top prize if they don't get in the tier for the top prize so it wouldn't be fair overall.

[Das Capitolin]

Everone doesn't have the same chance at the top prize if they don't get in the tier for the top prize so it wouldn't be fair overall.

I think it would be very fair overall. This way someone with 100 entries doesn't run all over the guy with 1 entry, and instead has to go against the other guys with 100 entries. If you think about it, it is more fair.

[GIBSON]

5) is good so there are no advantages with people with fast/more than one rig.

6) wouldn't be so fair as only the top 3 with the most entires would be eligibale for 1st prize. Everyone should have a chance at all three prizes; I thinking this: get as many entries per completed projects as you can and make the contest a random drawing for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. This way everyone has a chance at all three prizes even though the person with more completed projects has a better chance.
sounding good, it's a lot more fair than just letting the one with the most computing power walk away with the prize

[werty316]

sounding good, it's a lot more fair than just letting the one with the most computing power walk away with the prize

Why not its a competition? Its like Nascar, its all for one. Another idea was a maximum number of entries a user can get so there isn't anyone who has 100 entires more than anyone else.

[GIBSON]

Oh well, both idea's are pretty good by me, one thing I'd like to add though: what happens if a contestant gets drawn twice. Should there be a rule added that says: One prize per contestant?

[Das Capitolin]

Oh well, both idea's are pretty good by me, one thing I'd like to add though: what happens if a contestant gets drawn twice. Should there be a rule added that says: One prize per contestant?

This is why I like my idea. The contestants are divided into sections based on the number of entries. They person drawn would only (and could only) win once.

[Kougar]

I bring to you, people of Bjorn3D, my 5th and 6th rules:

5) Each completed project will give you one entry in the contest.

6) If the contest has one prize, then the winner is picked at random. If there are more then one prize, the contestants are divided into groups that correspond to the number of prizes, and the group competes for that level of prize. Example: Contestants who were in the top 1/3 of the entries would be in the 1st place drawing, the second highest group will be entered in the 2nd place drawing, and the final (lowest) group would be entered in the 3rd palce drawing.

Super-fair. Even Johnnie should be happy.

You know, I really like this idea as it gives everyone a chance. I already assumed it would be one prize per person though, so you can't win twice...

Now about the 6th rule... I am not sure if this is needed. Here is how I am seeing it... if several people have a large number of WUs completed, then they already have a very large % for winning something over everyone else. So this is the only reason why I don't think the prizes need to be divided into groups, as those that can put the most into this would still have the best chance, and those that at least make the minimum requirements still get their one shot at winning 1st place. By dividing the prizes into catagories the only thing I see happening is that the people that don't have access to powerful/many computers will be locked into only winning the 3rd place item, at best. And once a person wins, all of their "entries" are removed before the next place winners are drawn... that would still skew the people that put forth the least work towards winning the 3rd/last prize anyway.

I have a few questions though about this contest. Such as do we just need to change our name to our forum name, or to something that is generated for us? This leads into my second question... I already do folding@home, but my team is Team Anandtech. I assume that regardless of the name change, I can still associate the completed WUs done under a new name for team Anandtech? Or were you planning of creating a special team to try and keep better track of this?

I've seen a good number of folding@home statistic pages, but the one I like the best and use is http://folding.extremeoverclocking.com/team_summary.php?s=&t=198 (http://folding.extremeoverclocking.com/team_summary.php?s=&t=198) just as an example. It ranks everyone doing folding@home work, and also ranks within the team itself, and then ranks the teams amongst themselves...

[werty316]

I like Das Capitolin ideas too but don't feel bad in the end if you didn't Fold enough entries to be in the top tier in the running for 1st place prize.

[Das Capitolin]

Now about the 6th rule... I am not sure if this is needed. Here is how I am seeing it... if several people have a large number of WUs completed, then they already have a very large % for winning something over everyone else. So this is the only reason why I don't think the prizes need to be divided into groups, as those that can put the most into this would still have the best chance, and those that at least make the minimum requirements still get their one shot at winning 1st place. By dividing the prizes into catagories the only thing I see happening is that the people that don't have access to powerful/many computers will be locked into only winning the 3rd place item, at best. And once a person wins, all of their "entries" are removed before the next place winners are drawn... that would still skew the people that put forth the least work towards winning the 3rd/last prize anyway.

Looking at it from the other side of the glass: The people who do not have super computers have a greater chance of winning something if they are grouped with others in their range. If there are 30 contestants (there had better be more), and 1/3 have 100 entries, 1/3 have 50, and the lower 1/3 have 1 entry each, then the low end contestant stands a less then .001% chance of winning. However if he/she is grouped with the others within range, then the chance of winning (using the formula above) is 10%. I see this method as a way of rewarding everyones effort.

I have a few questions though about this contest. Such as do we just need to change our name to our forum name, or to something that is generated for us? This leads into my second question... I already do folding@home, but my team is Team Anandtech. I assume that regardless of the name change, I can still associate the completed WUs done under a new name for team Anandtech? Or were you planning of creating a special team to try and keep better track of this? If this contest see the light of day, Scott has mentioned handing out folding@home names. I imagine he will create a team for this contest as well.

[Johnie]

Sorry for being late guys...just want to say that dont worry about Johnie's complains anymore....cause like I said...dont care anymore... :twisted: :mrgreen:

I am sure Scott will find a right fair way to get things done...and if you can help with some ideas and suggestions...even better...as long as all member will have equal chances of wining (and not only members with uber fast computers :twisted: )... 8-) :wink:

[Das Capitolin]

Sorry for being late guys...just want to say that dont worry about Johnie's complains anymore....cause like I said...dont care anymore... :twisted: :mrgreen:

Yeah yeah, we'll see.


I am sure Scott will find a right fair way to get things done...and if you can help with some ideas and suggestions...even better...as long as all member will have equal chances of wining (and not only members with uber fast computers :twisted: )... 8-) :wink:

It seems like you might have skipped all the discussion that has already taken place in this thread. Read it over and tell us what you think. Or add some stuff of your own.

[Kougar]

Looking at it from the other side of the glass: The people who do not have super computers have a greater chance of winning something if they are grouped with others in their range. If there are 30 contestants (there had better be more), and 1/3 have 100 entries, 1/3 have 50, and the lower 1/3 have 1 entry each, then the low end contestant stands a less then .001% chance of winning. However if he/she is grouped with the others within range, then the chance of winning (using the formula above) is 10%. I see this method as a way of rewarding everyones effort.

To try and put it more succinctly, my point is that I don't think many of those contest entrants would prefer a much better chance at winning only the third place item. I would have assumed that most would prefer their one-shot/shot in the dark chance at taking the first prize, then having marginally better but still slim odds of winning the other prizes. I could very well be wrong, and I guess a poll would be needed to figure this out either way though...

If this contest see the light of day, Scott has mentioned handing out folding@home names. I imagine he will create a team for this contest as well.

Well I an not very keen on having 10,000 to 15,000 points taken away from my folding team, is the problem. An entire month's of folding work amounts to a very large sum of points, even after I have already shut down all of my other rigs except for this main machine and a power efficient lappy.

The second point here is that unless I could buy, receive, and build my planned Conroe rig in time for this, I should expect to see another just under $400 electric bill if I fire up my other folding rigs. :???: I never knew untill last month that the local TX power company has a "prime-time" usage rate that is more than double the usual kilowatt per hour rate they charge! Oops.Thankfully most of that bill wasn't mine to pay since I am not the only person living here, but I'm going to have to debate helping pay for a absurdly high power bill for the better chances of winning a contest, when I could just keep my rigs off and NOT have to pay the bill in the first place, and buy a $140 7600GT instead with the savings :wink: All of that isn't to say I wouldn't plan to enter (As I certainly would enter such a contest in a heartbeat), just that I'll probably not be flipping on my "fleet" anytime soon for one... ;)

[Das Capitolin]

To try and put it more succinctly, my point is that I don't think many of those contest entrants would prefer a much better chance at winning only the third place item. I would have assumed that most would prefer their one-shot/shot in the dark chance at taking the first prize, then having marginally better but still slim odds of winning the other prizes. I could very well be wrong, and I guess a poll would be needed to figure this out either way though...

They wouldn't be. They would have no idea what group the might fit into, simply because the score isn't computed until the end of the game.

Well I an not very keen on having 10,000 to 15,000 points taken away from my folding team, is the problem. An entire month's of folding work amounts to a very large sum of points, even after I have already shut down all of my other rigs except for this main machine and a power efficient lappy.

Keep in mind that Scott has really said very little about the contest. Do not take anything here as gospel. However, I am curious how many systems are required to make 10-15k worth of points in a month?

The second point here is that unless I could buy, receive, and build my planned Conroe rig in time for this, I should expect to see another just under $400 electric bill if I fire up my other folding rigs. :???: I never knew untill last month that the local TX power company has a "prime-time" usage rate that is more than double the usual kilowatt per hour rate they charge! Oops.Thankfully most of that bill wasn't mine to pay since I am not the only person living here, but I'm going to have to debate helping pay for a absurdly high power bill for the better chances of winning a contest, when I could just keep my rigs off and NOT have to pay the bill in the first place, and buy a $140 7600GT instead with the savings :wink: All of that isn't to say I wouldn't plan to enter (As I certainly would enter such a contest in a heartbeat), just that I'll probably not be flipping on my "fleet" anytime soon for one... ;)

My army of servers and computers could beat yours; if we could affort to turn them on. :(

[Kougar]

They wouldn't be. They would have no idea what group the might fit into, simply because the score isn't computed until the end of the game.

Ah, I think I finally get what you are saying... it's not a fixed grouping... Well, that helps but I'm not sure if others would prefer that? They would still be locked out of getting the top prize, I'd think? Or am I still missing something...

Keep in mind that Scott has really said very little about the contest. Do not take anything here as gospel. However, I am curious how many systems are required to make 10-15k worth of points in a month?

Alrighty... Well, just between this rig (the one in my sig) and the lappy I am averaging about 383 points a day. Once I get this months electric bill and can figure out how much of it was really from my computers as opposed to the AC units, then I may switch on another Northwood P4 that I built from scrap eBay parts. The rest are going to be sold as originally planned though... ;)

My army of servers and computers could beat yours; if we could affort to turn them on. :(

Eheh, good point... :wink: I'm mostly just annoyed I likely won't be able to put my Conroe rig to use for folding in time for this contest...

Althlon 64s are a decent bit faster than their Intel counterparts at doing folding work, and when you compare Athlon X2s to a Presler it's just all the more faster since you can run one folding program per core. Due to Conroe's impressive benchmark leads and improbable SuperPi scores, it's going to be all but made for folding@home work, times two. Some early WUs submitted via a engineering sample Merom were more than just a step above it's counterpart Athlon X2 scores in total PPD, but as I was never sure of the graphs being used I won't give numbers.

[Johnie]

I havent skipped it Das...I read everything...it's just that I am not too familiar with how folding compare and tracking works....so cant really comment on that...and I also believe we should leave everything to Scott to decide about what to do and what rules to set and stuff...afterall he is the boss...8) :wink:

And finally...I dont want any of you to point fingers at Johnie later....:mrgreen: ..soooooooooo....for now...I'll just go with the flow...and play by the rules Scott (some maybe even with your help) sets...fair enough? :twisted: :-D :wink:

[Kougar]

Well, if you want to play around with figuring out folding@home scores then this is the site to try it with http://www.fahinfo.org/index.php?news=true (http://www.fahinfo.org/index.php?news=true) In particular, is if you go to the Graphs/Buyers Guide section, there you can look up specific CPUs, or even compare two specific CPUs to one another. Most of them have had plenty of submissions so the data will be filled out evenly, but not all of them yet.

For keeping track of individuals, teams, and personal folding statistics I would recommend this page http://folding.extremeoverclocking.com/team_list.php?s= (http://folding.extremeoverclocking.com/team_list.php?s=)

If anyone is familiar with SETI@HOME, this is very similar to that program except it's more CPU intensive, and it's also for a much better cause. :)

[vfrex]

To avoid issues with people already established with teams in F@H, why don't we use another DC service? HardOCP has a group using United Devices. Then, people who have a few computers folding for a team can choose how many computers they want to have participate in the contest, and how many remain folding for their team.

http://www.grid.org/projects/cancer/

[Das Capitolin]

To avoid issues with people already established with teams in F@H, why don't we use another DC service? HardOCP has a group using United Devices. Then, people who have a few computers folding for a team can choose how many computers they want to have participate in the contest, and how many remain folding for their team.

http://www.grid.org/projects/cancer/

This looks like a pretty good idea. It seems to be exactly like F@H, but to help cancer research. I think we will have to wait for a little guidance/feedback from Scott on this one.

[Scott]

Dudes,

It is going to be simple. Sneak to all your friends houses and load the client with your given name and the Bjorn3D team #.

Make at least 100 post in the month and have the highest score with the name I will be handing out for you.

Pretty simple.

[Das Capitolin]

Dudes,

It is going to be simple. Sneak to all your friends houses and load the client with your given name and the Bjorn3D team #.

Make at least 100 post in the month and have the highest score with the name I will be handing out for you.

Pretty simple.

Yes, that is pretty straight-forward and simple. Better test your rigs now.

Feel free to close this discussion, since the contest concept will not require a constitution all of its own.

[werty316]

I don't know why a big discussion is need as I find it as simple as that also; no need for different groups for each prize.

[Scott]

Most of us either go to school or work where we could talk the IT Manager in letting it run on some machines for a month.

This is your chance to see how many friends you really have.

[GIBSON]

Most of us either go to school or work where we could talk the IT Manager in letting it run on some machines for a month.

This is your chance to see how many friends you really have.

Actually it's spring break over here in Belgium :grin: Still, the IT manager at our school would never let us do anything like this.
Now let's hope not too many people get disappointed about the amount of real friends they have :lol:

[tomato]

Wow Scott, when you break it down like that, it really is that simple... time to call in some favours! ;)

[ToXic_WaSTe]

So anyone wanna a give me a guick intro to folding at home... I know its about protein folding, but how does it work???

[werty316]

Give this thread a read.
http://www.bjorn3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9016

But if you are too lazy.
What is protein folding and how is folding linked to disease? Proteins are biology's workhorses -- its "nanomachines." Before proteins can carry out these important functions, they assemble themselves, or "fold." The process of protein folding, while critical and fundamental to virtually all of biology, in many ways remains a mystery.

Moreover, when proteins do not fold correctly (i.e. "misfold"), there can be serious consequences, including many well known diseases, such as Alzheimer's, Mad Cow (BSE), CJD, ALS, Huntington's, Parkinson's disease, and many Cancers and cancer-related syndromes.
There is this thing called google that gives you quick answers on things like this ;-) :mrgreen:

want to help, read on: http://folding.stanford.edu/

Our goal: to understand protein folding, misfolding, and related diseases

What is protein folding and how is folding linked to disease? Proteins are biology's workhorses -- its "nanomachines." Before proteins can carry out these important functions, they assemble themselves, or "fold." The process of protein folding, while critical and fundamental to virtually all of biology, in many ways remains a mystery.

Moreover, when proteins do not fold correctly (i.e. "misfold"), there can be serious consequences, including many well known diseases, such as Alzheimer's, Mad Cow (BSE), CJD, ALS, Huntington's, Parkinson's disease, and many Cancers and cancer-related syndromes.

You can help by simply running a piece of software. Folding@Home is a distributed computing project -- people from through out the world download and run software to band together to make one of the largest supercomputers in the world. Every computer makes the project closer to our goals.

Folding@Home uses novel computational methods coupled to distributed computing, to simulate problems thousands to millions of times more challenging than previously achieved.


http://folding.stanford.edu/

[ToXic_WaSTe]

Give this thread a read.
http://www.bjorn3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9016

But if you are too lazy.

Was more about the info on how to set up a user, I've figured it out. But still have no score:( even though im folding.

[tomato]

As my understanding, folding requires TIME and PATIENCE ;) Just let it sit and do its work... walk away for a while, let it process for a full day and then check its status ;)

[Das Capitolin]

Was more about the info on how to set up a user, I've figured it out. But still have no score:( even though im folding.

Take a look at my topic here: http://www.bjorn3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9026

It went for almost two days before I ever got a score. Since then, I have it installed on 15 other computers, so the points accumulate quicker now. With 15 computers I average 1000 points per day.

[Kougar]

Was more about the info on how to set up a user, I've figured it out. But still have no score:( even though im folding.

You get points allocated as you complete and upload each Work Unit. On average, a fast computer will take half a day or more to complete one WU. Your WU is only completed once it reaches "100", then the finished results are uploaded to the folding server. From there, you must wait until the stats are updated, as the stats are only run in batches every 4 hours, as I recall.