New fluid invented for immersion overclocking

[ToXic_WaSTe]

SOURCE (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=32959)

The working range goes from a high of 250C for the HT270 fluid to a low of -90C or so for HT70, with a pour point of -110C. With this stuff, you can cool your whole board down to almost 100 below, and still see it. CPU and GPU cooling? That is for the uninspired.

[GIBSON]

LOL, that should yield some nice temps. Is this non-conductive or something as the board should still be working when in an aquarium with this stuff?

[ToXic_WaSTe]

LOL, that should yield some nice temps. Is this non-conductive or something as the board should still be working when in an aquarium with this stuff?

Yep, its non conductive. But a lot of products are until extensive use, and then you cant avoid it. But this stuff should work great.. All you need now is a bottle of this, a industry pump, and thermoelectric cooling and you should get some impressive freezing temps... Could be a new project for bjorn3d:paw: ?

[Das Capitolin]

Yep, its non conductive. But a lot of products are until extensive use, and then you cant avoid it. But this stuff should work great.. All you need now is a bottle of this, a industry pump, and thermoelectric cooling and you should get some impressive freezing temps... Could be a new project for bjorn3d:paw: ?

"The working range goes from a high of 250C for the HT270 fluid to a low of -90C or so for HT70, with a pour point of -110C. With this stuff, you can cool your whole board down to almost 100 below, and still see it. CPU and GPU cooling? That is for the uninspired.

So, with this gauntlet thrown down, I should warn you that this stuff is not cheap. It sells for around $350-400 a gallon, but if you want an ultra-cold system in an aquarium, you don't have many choices, much less cheaper ones. Send me the results of your experiments guys. µ"

You should also add to the list of things you'll need: Ice-handling gloves. THis stuff pours out of its $400 bottle at -110c!!!

[werty316]

Damn talk about hardcore. I would never try this as there is no use unless you want to break and OC'ing record.

[ToXic_WaSTe]

Damn talk about hardcore. I would never try this as there is no use unless you want to break and OC'ing record.

Well exactly, who needs dry ice when you have this and thermoelectric cooling. could go past -200 i think, but nothing has been tried like this.. .:S

[werty316]

Technically thiis has been done but with some sort of oil.

[ToXic_WaSTe]

Technically thiis has been done but with some sort of oil.

Any link...

Still think this can go under any previous achived temp for a normal setup... Or somewhat normal setup...

[werty316]

Enjoy.

http://www.markusleonhardt.de/en/oelbilder.html

[ToXic_WaSTe]

Enjoy.

http://www.markusleonhardt.de/en/oelbilder.html

Cool, thomashardware did something like it too. But i was thinking for the coolant to be inside you watercool system(in the tubes). Do they show the temp of the compnents. Tomshardware had trouble getting.. mmhh.. AIR FLOW :confused: :roll:

[Kougar]

Damn talk about hardcore. I would never try this as there is no use unless you want to break and OC'ing record.

No use eh? You are completely wrong... this is perfect for anyone that wants a truly silent PC. No moving parts and no fans to wear out and no dusting every third or fourth week...

THG did a rather messy oil cooled PC rig previously though, and it had some major drawbacks. Such as I want to know if this stuff won't go stagnent or rancid like some of THG's liquid cooled attempts did because they used an particular oil base... Which also caused problems because some of the other types of oils they tried that don't go rancid actually instead will dissolve parts of the motherboard and would break it down after extened immersion.

I also wonder if this stuff evaporates any? It'd be pretty bad if you have to buy a new $400 jug every 8 months!

[Das Capitolin]

No use eh? You are completely wrong... this is perfect for anyone that wants a truly silent PC. No moving parts and no fans to wear out and no dusting every third or fourth week...

THG did a rather messy oil cooled PC rig previously though, and it had some major drawbacks. Such as I want to know if this stuff won't go stagnent or rancid like some of THG's liquid cooled attempts did because they used an particular oil base... Which also caused problems because some of the other types of oils they tried that don't go rancid actually instead will dissolve parts of the motherboard and would break it down after extened immersion.

I also wonder if this stuff evaporates any? It'd be pretty bad if you have to buy a new $400 jug every 8 months!

I was discussing this at lunch with some friends, and we could all agree that much like other chemical coolants and liquid gases, once exposed to heat above it's own or other elements, it would begin to break down, and it's efficiency would diminish.

[Kougar]

I was discussing this at lunch with some friends, and we could all agree that much like other chemical coolants and liquid gases, once exposed to heat above it's own or other elements, it would begin to break down, and it's efficiency would diminish.

Yes, this is a problem for most oil based liquids they tried. :( Now there are plenty of oils that won't break down for a long time even under the heat of a loaded computer, but these were the kinds that would instead of breaking down, simply break down the motherboard instead!

Okay, here's the original article on their attempts at an oil submerged PC: Strip Out The Fans, Add 8 Gallons of Cooking Oil (http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/01/09/strip_out_the_fans/)

Now if you really are interested in this or want something to add to that discussion for next time, you should read some of the responses from that above article that THG has published here! Some of these responses are very well done and quite informative, if not downright... interesting. ;) Readers' Responses to Strip Out The Fans, Add 8 Gallons of Cooking Oil (http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/02/02/strip_out_the_fans/index.html)

[werty316]

Do you think the average user would consider this method? I don't think so. That is what I meant.

[Kougar]

Do you think the average user would consider this method? I don't think so. That is what I meant.

Well then be a bit more specific or elaborate a little more in your posts from now on if you want to prevent misconceptions or get your idea across better. ;)

Between having a two milk jugs full of special stuff to cool a PC or having the PC itself to try and keep cool, I'd have to stick with having the PC first. Otherwise I'd be very interested in attempting some passive immersion cooling... this rig would make a perfect test subject, since I'm not quite daring enough to place my upcoming Core 2 Duo build in a vat of unknown liquid... :wink:

[ToXic_WaSTe]

Well then be a bit more specific or elaborate a little more in your posts from now on if you want to prevent misconceptions or get your idea across better. ;)

Between having a two milk jugs full of special stuff to cool a PC or having the PC itself to try and keep cool, I'd have to stick with having the PC first. Otherwise I'd be very interested in attempting some passive immersion cooling... this rig would make a perfect test subject, since I'm not quite daring enough to place my upcoming Core 2 Duo build in a vat of unknown liquid... :wink:

Still thinking this could be used as the coolant in a WC config. It may not be so silent the the cooling would be great. And then you still have some left for a refill. Besides allot of people spend to $ on their rigs, This isnt all that expensive if you get the preformance bennefit for the OC

[Das Capitolin]

Still thinking this could be used as the coolant in a WC config. It may not be so silent the the cooling would be great. And then you still have some left for a refill. Besides allot of people spend to $ on their rigs, This isnt all that expensive if you get the preformance bennefit for the OC

I don't think the liquid discussed in this topic would work in a WC setup. It doesn't mention if it is even liquid or light gel. Either way, it would freeze the pumps at the low pour temps.

Besides, what do all these "extreme OC enthusiasts" do with their hihgly-overclocked systems, anyway? Game?

[vfrex]

Right, you can't expect a water cooling system designed to pump water to deal with a significantly thicker oil based substance. Further, the oil isn't nearly as good at absorbing heat without its temperature rising/properties changing.

[ToXic_WaSTe]

Right, you can't expect a water cooling system designed to pump water to deal with a significantly thicker oil based substance. Further, the oil isn't nearly as good at absorbing heat without its temperature rising/properties changing.

Well if it was oil based it would be no good, but think about lighter gas or softgun gas, its a liquid. The pumps would have to be modded or something... Would just be a good way to cool your rig to the extreme...

The same thing with thermoelectrics, yes its expensive, no you really dont need it.. But its out there if you want to cool to below freezing.

[vfrex]

Ugh, sorry, I was off. This does look pretty good.

Btw, a good reference for submersion projects: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=802563&page=1&pp=20&highlight=thinktank

[Kougar]

I don't think the consistency/density of this stuff is more than a few notches above water, maybe at worst a watery baby oil is my guess... Just look at the air bubble fountain in the picture.

http://www.theinquirer.net/images/articles/TV_in_a_bath.jpg

This stuff looks to be made for exactly what it was shown doing, you put your computer inside a tank or a special sealed case and let it sit there. The large surface area of the liquid held inside the container would be more than enough for simple convection cooling... If this substance is what it appears to be there won't be any hotspots forming, so no circulation inside the tank would be needed.

[ToXic_WaSTe]

I don't think the consistency/density of this stuff is more than a few notches above water, maybe at worst a watery baby oil is my guess... Just look at the air bubble fountain in the picture.

http://www.theinquirer.net/images/articles/TV_in_a_bath.jpg

This stuff looks to be made for exactly what it was shown doing, you put your computer inside a tank or a special sealed case and let it sit there. The large surface area of the liquid held inside the container would be more than enough for simple convection cooling... If this substance is what it appears to be there won't be any hotspots forming, so no circulation inside the tank would be needed.

Or it could simply show it doesnt conduct electricity, Bose does the same thing with their outdoors speakers. Dumps em in water and show how the still work;-) ... Many manucfators of coolants also brag about how little their coolant conducts electricity.

And would be very hard to make a completely waterproof PC, not to talk about changing components. Ouch! cold! :lol:

[vfrex]

Ok, so I am looking at the specs on the following site:

http://www.lesker.com/newweb/Vacuum_Fluids/Heat_Transfer_Fluids/Heat_Transfer_Main.cfm?CFID=1201543&CFTOKEN=69611336

Can someone explain what the .0007 Thermal conduct (W/cmºC) means? What is W?

[Kougar]

Dang those are some technical/impressive specifications on that page...

vFrex, pretty sure that value is to compute the thermal conductivity, to make sure whatever you submerge in it won't put out to much heat for it to handle. I would have to guess that the "W" stands for Watt, since it's for Thermal conductivity and TDP is expressed in watts... or at least that's my best guess. ;)

Toxic, the whole "thing" behind this liquid is it's heat transfer properties and nonconductivity so it would be perfect for my purposes, except for the $2k per 5 gallon price tag. Maybe if I used a iTX sized motherboard inside a glass bowl I could afford this... :mrgreen:

[Das Capitolin]

Dang those are some technical/impressive specifications on that page...

vFrex, pretty sure that value is to compute the thermal conductivity, to make sure whatever you submerge in it won't put out to much heat for it to handle. I would have to guess that the "W" stands for Watt, since it's for Thermal conductivity and TDP is expressed in watts... or at least that's my best guess. ;)

Toxic, the whole "thing" behind this liquid is it's heat transfer properties and nonconductivity so it would be perfect for my purposes, except for the $2k per 5 gallon price tag. Maybe if I used a iTX sized motherboard inside a glass bowl I could afford this... :mrgreen:

Don't think of this in terms of fishtank sized environment. Instead, envision a container no larger then the motherboard box itself, and the motherboard would rest in it much the same way. Just enough to cover the entire motherboard and most of the CPU. I would leave the heatsink on the CPU, but take all of the fans off. You could easily cool your system down with a very small amount of this solution. Maybe even one gallon could last long term?

[vfrex]

Wouldn't it make sense for heat dissapation to be W/cm^2, as it should be related to surface area? Or am I completely off?

[Kougar]

That's a pretty good idea Das Capitolin, maybe some kind of motherboard sandwich under glass, turned so the I/O ports are at the top and exposed to the air or so... I'd worry about long term loads though with only that much surface area to dissapate heat though? I mean, in that acrylic PC case turned fish tank THG built the ambient temps of the oil rose and held at 40c with just a FX55 under full load. I guess you'd have to use a low TDP processor, like say Conroe for this... :mrgreen:

vFrex, I think you're right about that, but as I said it was my best guess from what google told me. ;)

[GIBSON]

Wouldn't it make sense for heat dissapation to be W/cm^2, as it should be related to surface area? Or am I completely off?
I think it is in cm because I think it handles about the distance of the heat source. Not sure though. Might this have anything to do with deltaCW? (you read it a lot in watercooling reviews (it can be calculated if you know the temp difference between idle and load, and if you know what the power of the cpu is), the lower deltaCW is, the better.)

[werty316]

Using a larger container as apposed to a large container means more heat can be obsorbed into the liquid so a larger tank would be more optimal. Its like using a single rad compared to using a double rad.

All the liquid in a small tank would heat up much more quick because its volume is less to if you used a larger tank. Its like a lake that freezes during winter. I larger lake takes more time to freeze than a smaller lake because it has a larger volume can retain more heat.

[ToXic_WaSTe]

I think it is in cm because I think it handles about the distance of the heat source. Not sure though. Might this have anything to do with deltaCW? (you read it a lot in watercooling reviews (it can be calculated if you know the temp difference between idle and load, and if you know what the power of the cpu is), the lower deltaCW is, the better.)


Energi is measured in Watt which is Amps and Voltage. But Energi is also defined in terms of work over distance, which is Force over distance. Today we use mostly joules or work with base units of kg·m²/s² (N·m)(Newton which is Force·meter)... So could be some weird way of measuring the energi which can be dissapated.

[GIBSON]

Energi is measured in Watt which is Amps and Voltage. But Energi is also defined in terms of work over distance, which is Force over distance. Today we use mostly joules or work with base units of kg·m²/s² (N·m)(Newton which is Force·meter)... So could be some weird way of measuring the energi which can be dissapated.
Anyone who studies science knows that toxic!
It's just thermal conductivity, as you have thermal conductivity in copper, aluminium, silver etc. It's probably just a number that expresses how much energy it can conduct.

[vfrex]

My point is, it doesn't matter how fast the heat can be transferred within the substance. If it can't dissipate the temperature into the air (note: through the surface area of the vessel holding the substance) faster than heat is being put in, you'd need to find a way to chill it.

[GIBSON]

My point is, it doesn't matter how fast the heat can be transferred within the substance. If it can't dissipate the temperature into the air (note: through the surface area of the vessel holding the substance) faster than heat is being put in, you'd need to find a way to chill it.
Just put a rad on the vessel, it should be more than sufficient to get the heat out

[ToXic_WaSTe]

Anyone who studies science knows that toxic!


Yep, and not everyone here studies science so whats the deal..

The heat will probably spread throught the whole cooling liquid, and transfer the heat to the air.

[vfrex]

Just put a rad on the vessel, it should be more than sufficient to get the heat out

Well, if the goal of immersion is passive cooling & silence, a rad would defeat the purpose.

The heat will probably spread throught the whole cooling liquid, and transfer the heat to the air.

Right. The point I am making is that if your goal is to make a silent system by completely submerging the motherboard, assuming you don't want the liquid to boil, the heat being transferred into the liquid needs to be transferred to the air. And, the rate at which it is transferred to the air would be directly related to the surface area. I was hoping that we could use the numbers provided on the substance's thermal conductivity to determine how many watts of energy we can expect to dissipate into the air without the substance getting hot.

[GIBSON]

you don't necessarily have to put a fan on the rad, you could even use passive rads :)

[ToXic_WaSTe]

Well, if the goal of immersion is passive cooling & silence, a rad would defeat the purpose.



Right. The point I am making is that if your goal is to make a silent system by completely submerging the motherboard, assuming you don't want the liquid to boil, the heat being transferred into the liquid needs to be transferred to the air. And, the rate at which it is transferred to the air would be directly related to the surface area. I was hoping that we could use the numbers provided on the substance's thermal conductivity to determine how many watts of energy we can expect to dissipate into the air without the substance getting hot.

The liquid is -110 C, i would doubt that it needs any other means of cooling. There are a lot of fanless heatsinks out there, and i dont think any of them can cool to -110 ?

[Das Capitolin]

The liquid is -110 C, i would doubt that it needs any other means of cooling. There are a lot of fanless heatsinks out there, and i dont think any of them can cool to -110 ?

Exactly! At a pour temp of negative 110 degrees celceus, how do you imagine a motherboard and CPU is really going to impact the temperature be any real margin?

[vfrex]

The liquid is -110 C, i would doubt that it needs any other means of cooling. There are a lot of fanless heatsinks out there, and i dont think any of them can cool to -110 ?

No, the liquid doesn't freeze until it gets below -110C. It will just approach room temperature if you don't actively remove heat from it.

[Das Capitolin]

No, the liquid doesn't freeze until it gets below -110C. It will just approach room temperature if you don't actively remove heat from it.

Where are you getting this infor from??? The article says it pours at -110C, not freezes at that temp.

[vfrex]

I don't know much about science, but since the "pour point" is listed right below the boiling point, I would assume that the pour point is the temperature at which the substance begins to solidify.

[GIBSON]

I don't know much about science, but since the "pour point" is listed right below the boiling point, I would assume that the pour point is the temperature at which the substance begins to solidify.
Wouldn't they call it solidifying point then? :confused:

[vfrex]

Well, you might expect it to be called the freezing point. However, this substance probably turns into more of a gelatin at that temperature than a solid. I might have a chem guy stopping by in a couple of hours, so if we don't have it figured out by then, I'll ask him.


edit: Googled it, and:

http://autorepair.about.com/library/glossary/bldef-615.htm

Definition: The lowest temperature at which oil will pour.

[GIBSON]

Definition: The lowest temperature at which oil will pour.
this would be right above freezing point or what? Anyhow, to be exact it isn't freezing point. Theoretically the term freezing is only used for water, everything else solidifies! 8-)

[ToXic_WaSTe]

this would be right above freezing point or what? Anyhow, to be exact it isn't freezing point. Theoretically the term freezing is only used for water, everything else solidifies! 8-)

But anyway this stuff would have to stay cool, or there would be no reason to make it. Who wants to pour in 37 degrees liquid to cool their pc? And if it is just af matter of conductivity, they could easily make it non conductive at room temps... But cant really see how it would keep cool?

[vfrex]

But anyway this stuff would have to stay cool, or there would be no reason to make it. Who wants to pour in 37 degrees liquid to cool their pc?

I think the point is that you can use cooling methods to bring this liquid down to very cool temperatures without it freezing.

[ToXic_WaSTe]

I think the point is that you can use cooling methods to bring this liquid down to very cool temperatures without it freezing.

Now that i havnt thought of but makes perfect sense, which is why this is to go into a WC system, dont think the pump can freeze then.. Well saif vfrex it seems simple but just didnt think of it.

But going below zero is always costly, even with this stuff.

[vfrex]

Well, if by WC system you mean a closed loop (as opposed to submersion), the problem still exists that viscosity increases as temperature decreases. That is, the liquid becomes thicker and more difficult to pump.

The company site gives a viscosity number for those substances at 25 degrees C. I can't really tell how good it is since the wikipedia article uses a different unit. However, water is typically considered a great substance to use for cooling because it can absorb so much heat without increasing in temperature. I don't think any substance comes close.

[GIBSON]

Well, if by WC system you mean a closed loop (as opposed to submersion), the problem still exists that viscosity increases as temperature decreases. That is, the liquid becomes thicker and more difficult to pump.

The company site gives a viscosity number for those substances at 25 degrees C. I can't really tell how good it is since the wikipedia article uses a different unit. However, water is typically considered a great substance to use for cooling because it can absorb so much heat without increasing in temperature. I don't think any substance comes close.
You're right there, water is supposed to be the liquid which can store the most heat. The CW for water 4186J/g°C if i'm not mistaken.